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what's the difference between nosler ballistic tips and nosler ballistic silver tips besides the different colour tip?
07-25-2008, 03:35 PM
One is sold under the Combined technology moniker and in Winchester manufactured ammo and the other under the Nosler moniker....Both are manufactured by Nosler.
Combined Technology is a joint venture between Winchester and Nosler.
they're both on the nosler site provided by them. otherwise same bullet though?
07-25-2008, 05:24 PM
they're both on the nosler site provided by them. otherwise same bullet though?
That is correct....same bullet other than one has a black coating and silver tip.
07-25-2008, 08:48 PM
Are the CT bullets moly coated?
07-25-2008, 08:54 PM
No they are Lubalox coated. Only the partition gold's were moly coated.
07-26-2008, 12:26 AM
I think you will find that the Ballistic Silvertips are of lighter construction than the 'normal' Ballistic Tips.
We have sectioned both of these in 30cal 180gr, and discovered that the Ballistic Tip had the same jacket profile as the Accubond 180, and the Ballistic Silvertip was vastly 'skinnier' in it's jacket profile.
Why this is so, I can't give you an answer.
We did this because a buddy was using the Ballistic Silvertips for deer hunting, and I was using the Accubonds, he lost his deer, and I didn't!
Does anyone know for certain if the ballistic silvertip is the same bullet as the Winchester silvertip, only with a dark coating?
I thought the coating was moly.
Why are these so outrageously expensive?
07-26-2008, 08:16 AM
They are indeed the same bullet. The reason they are more expensive is the lubalox coating. This coating is a Trademarked and patented by Olin-Winchester and can only be had on the CT line of bullets.
so the ct's expand faster? i've heard anyone who uses them think they work great but that could be the regular ballistic tips. basically these bullets open even faster than standard constructed bullets right?
The old Winchester silvertips really killed deer. The Silvertip was originally marketed as having an aluminum jacket around the lead soft point that delayed expansion until the bullet reached the vitals. This wasn't true at all. The aluminum jacket crushed off immediately, exposing the larger surface area of the soft point. The aluminum was as effective at delaying expansion as an empty beer can would be at holding up a car.
These bullets were about the best at killing deer of any I've used. They mushroomed like crazy, but didn't shed their core. Even at the outrageous price it would be great, but what the heck is in the Lubalox? I'm not running ANYTHING down my barrel I'm going to regret later. Look at the current Moly debate.
I'm not saying Lubalox is good or bad, I just want to know what it is, not an advertising guy's idea of what it supposedly does.
07-26-2008, 11:45 AM
There are three basic BT designs listed at Nosler's site. The CT BT, seen here:
and the BT Varmint, seen here:
and the BT Hunting, seen here:
If you look at the cross-sections on each of those pages, you'll begin to see the differences. The CT is actually thinner than the BT Hunting, but thicker than the BT Varmint, if I understand the pictures and the descriptions correctly. In all reality, BT's are either varmint bullets, or thin-skinned game bullets for velocities below 3000fps at the muzzle. If you're pushing them out faster, go to the Accubond or to a Hornady Interbond or Swift Scirocco or Barnes Tipped TSX, whatever shoots best in your gun, if you need a polymer-tipped bullet. If you are OK with lead tips, your options for stouter construction are numerous. It all comes down to using bullets for what they are designed for, and having proper shot placement. It's hard to tell shot placement on an animal you don't recover.
dubyam, You're a pretty smart guy, any idea what Lubalox coating is?
The reason I'm fired up to know about this, is Friday I was in Cabelas and had a box in my hand. I have a .270 I want to use this year. I looked at the picture on the box, saw the black coating and put them back.
There is soooo much "new and improved" evil out there, and the gun writers are pushing it. The fact is, they are shooting the stuff out of someone else's rifle on game farm hunts. I'd love to work up a load with some 130 grain silvertips, but I don't want to regret some evil coating for the next 5 years in a brand new rifle.
07-26-2008, 04:20 PM
Here is what Olin has to say about thier coating.
It may have been put together by the sales staff so you will have to decide for yourself.
winchester silver tips and winchester ballistic silvertips are different are they not?
07-26-2008, 06:08 PM
Silver Tips and Ballistic Silvertips are different. I don't think you can actually buy the original Silver Tips any more, but I may be wrong, having not purchased any factory ammo for over a decade now, other than 22lr.
As for the Lubalox thing, I tend to believe what Winchester posted, to a point. I've not heard of these bullets creating any issues, and I have heard a lot about moly, so I listen when people talk about coatings. Lubalox is not like the blue stuff Barnes used, in that it will not scrape off as easily, as far as I understand it, as well. Now, a quick google of the term provided not much more than what is on the site, though a more in depth search might.
I've never shot them.
dubyam, IMO it will take some time, and more extensive use to prove out the Lubalox coating, good or evil.
I used to subscribe to Precision Shooting magazine. I would read it cover to cover, and when Moly came into use in the mid 1990's I read everything I could on the subject. Every couple months there were more articles on the many advantages of Moly. Suddenly I thought about what was being written did not fit into a logical time frame. How could these writers claim to have used a product extensively when it just came out?
I never got on the Moly bandwagon, although I had to work to resist the urge. Nancy Tompkins made a comment about the fact that she and Mid didn't use moly, with no reason given. I really wondered about that.
ssgehlmick, Thanks for the link to Winchester. Thats more than I found with Google. I love the statement about moly not harming barrels. I guess that's true, but the moisture trapped UNDERNEATH the moly really causes problems.
What else are they going to say? If they admitted anything, it would put them on a hook.
It's a shame. Here I've got this brand new .270, just itching for load development, and the thought of showing the guys at deer camp Silvertip handloads just makes me smile. The old Winchester Silvertips have a sterling reputation for killing deer, but I'm afraid of screwing up my rifle with some proprietary coating on the new bullets. It's pretty obvious what I'm going to do.
I get slammed for being bull headed, mostly by my friends, (probably well deserved) but what about this? Yeah, they make new barrels every day, but....
07-27-2008, 12:08 PM
Well, Lubalox coating has been out since the early 90's, and was used extensively in handgun bullets prior to being used in rifles - remember the 'Black Talon' craze of the early 90's? If there were problems associated with it's use, I suspect they'd at least be published on the web somewhere. I found a few posts on other forums where people say they've used the bullets for several years and found reduced fouling, but in all reality, that's a subjective measurement. I can get reduced fouling by cleaning every 20 shots versus every 35 or 50 shots, or if I changed to a different powder, but it doesn't say much about the bullet. I'm not saying the bullets are the be-all, end-all, but I am saying that the difficulty in finding specific complaints here on the web speaks to the (at least) innocuous effect on barrels of the Lubalox coating. Again, I don't shoot them, so I am not speaking from experience. If they were more cost effective, I might try them, but for the money, I can buy bullets better suited to my use, or bullets of equal construction and use for less money. I'll admit, however, that they look darn cool. Especially if you load them over nickel cases. Black and silver is a classic combo. Let us know how it turns out if you get a wild hair and try them out.
As for moly, I was equally suspect, and avoided the process and pre-coated bullets like the plague, as I had enough good sense to know that if you put the moly into your barrel as you shot, that it would take a long, long time to coat the entire length of the bore (if you could coat it evenly) and equally long to remove it if it didn't work. I don't like hassle.
Wasn't there some miracle polymer coating on pistol bullets in the early 90's? It was supposed to help an ordinary lead bullet slip through Kevlar?
I didn't remember the Lubalox coating on the black talons. I thought it was a polymer of some kind, or Teflon.
Isn't it amazing what can be dreamed up and sold to Red Hot Sportsmen?
The moly craze was sure big, I think it might still be going on.
I always wondered about moly. If it was such a fabulous friction reducer, why didn't someone market a moly additive for cars? If 80% of engine wear occurs during start-up, wouldn't moly reduce 80% of engine wear? Think about a set of roller bearings packed with moly. Would they ever wear out?
No, the claims for moly never added up for me.
07-27-2008, 01:22 PM
I was going to suggest the Remington bronze point if you wanted something different to show your buddies....But it appears that they no longer make them now that they have the accu tip, which from what I can see is just their version of the Ballistic tip.
It seems that everyone is jumping on the polymer tipped bullet craze these days. I see most of the major bullet manufacturers offering them as of late. I would imagine that the ones who don't now, will soon and then you will be able to buy all your favorite brands with a plastic tip.
I have loaded a ton of ballistic tips over the years and find them to work quite well despite what others have posted on the subject. I switched to Hornady SSTs when Nosler dropped them from a 100 count box to a 50 count box and upped the price. The SSTs seem to print just as accurately and perform just as well on deer and come in a 100 count box and are cheaper in price to boot.
Lately for hunting rounds I have been loading Hornady Interbonds and like them very much and think I will stick with them for pretty much everything as long as they shoot well in each of my rifles.
Recently I worked up a new load for my 308 Norma and tested 4 180gn bonded bullets. Barnes MRX, Nosler Accubond, Swift Scirocco, and Hornady Interbonds. They all printed very well so I will be going with which ever I can get the best deal on.
Good luck on what ever you choose for your 270...IMO load development is a lot of work, but most of the fun.
07-27-2008, 02:02 PM
I did a quick hit on the armor piercing aspect, and found this on wikipedia:
Beyond that, I can't say much, except that there were tons of misinformation campaigns against the Black Talon, mostly by folks with a vested interest in getting rid of guns and ammo as a whole.
I did a more in depth google and found several posters who were claiming fouling issues with the lubalox coated BT's, but they all had odd inconsistencies in their stories, like that the fouling was visible as little balls of black stuff in their barrel (which sounds remarkedly like powder fouling) and that it came out with solvent and the patches were black. Hmmm...my patches are black when I clean my rifles, and yet I shoot uncoated bullets across the board. I wonder?
The thing to do is to take a rifle that is not sentimentally valuable and run them through it as a test - I may try it with a Savage or something, since the barrel is easily replaced if I smoke it with coated bullets. Of course, a one barrel test is not significant in statistical terms, but it would be an easy way to gain a little experience with these bullets. Then again, they're expensive, and I don't need them right now...
07-27-2008, 04:46 PM
Here’s my experience with, 130gr Combined Technology Nosler/Winchester
product Ballistic Silvertip 270 cal. (#51075), that works best in my brand new
Remington 700 ADL Rifle chambered in .270. Leupold VX-III 2.5 – 8, 33mm
objective end scope sits on top.
Rifle was cleaned. Stock screws torqued accordingly, to the action.
All excited about my new rifle I wanted to reload some cartridges to try it out.
Remembering an article I had read in an old Reloader Magazine, I investigated
and found the recipe for a 130gr bullet in .270 Winchester.
So just on a whim I reloaded 10each, 130gr Combined Technology
Nosler/Winchester product Ballistic Silvertip 270 cal. (#51075),
51grs of Dupont IMR 4350, CCI 200 LR primer,
Case Winchester/Remington, clocked at2850 fps
Bullet depth set as to allow the cartridge to go into the magazine.
Small base full-length reloading dies are used.
I finally got a chance to go out and try this new reload. Wanting to quickly see
how this reload would perform I set a target at about 50yds. Using my Harris Bipod,
fired some rounds down range. Wow, how disappointing. The groups were roughly
3”. Thinking this can’t be right. I had a sneaking hunch it was the Bipod.
Went home and reloaded another 10 cartridges. I went back a week later. I took
my shooting table, sand bags, and Chorny. 100yds, this time the results were
amazing. I had dime size clover leafs at 100yds. Tried a couple in the kneeling
position, groups were roughly an inch of each other (I use to shoot .22 rifle
4 position competition), that was good enough for me.
The reload above is the only thing I have ever shot in my .270. As for the Lubelux
black finish, the barrel appears to be very clean looking. I can’t remember the last
time I cleaned the barrel. Maybe a bore scope would tell a different story. I just wanted
a bullet that would extend the life of my barrel and be accurate.
I have not had a chance to try the reload on deer yet. I do remember I picked the
130gr Combined Technology Nosler/Winchester product Ballistic Silvertip 270 cal.
(#51075), because of literature I had read. A friend uses the plain Silvertips, with
I have several other rifles that I use Moly type bullets in. Moly traps moisture
underneath it. Always swab the bore (several passes) with an oiled patch, before
putting the gun away.
07-27-2008, 05:39 PM
I've been told by Nosler that the CT and regular hunting BT are essentially the same bullet with the exception of coatings. Looking at the cross sections suggests they are not, but perhaps there are different caliber bullets in each drawing.
I doubt you would find much difference in actual field use, even if they are slightly different. They're designed to retain somewhere between 50% and 60% of their weight, and my experience bears that out. They do expand quickly and somewhat violently but that is not necessarily bad. At moderate velocities they are very reliable and appropriate bullet for thin skinned game animals.
Pick the one that shoots best in your gun and go hunting.
07-27-2008, 08:17 PM
I bought a box .30cal CT balistic silver tips and they did not shoot that well out of my 300wsm. Tried to pawn them off on a buddy and he tried them in his 30-06 and gave the rest of the box back to me- he said they shot terrible. I have no intention of sending them down any of my barrels and would send you a handful if they were .270 for you to try.
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