X-Bolt vs. Weatherby Vanguard SUB-MOA

[MNDeerhunter]

I’m trying to decide between the Browning X-Bolt and the Weatherby Vanguard SUB-MOA in .300 WSM and am looking for some feedback on the two.

Can anyone tell me about the trigger on the Vanguard SUB-MOA? Everything indicates it’s fully adjustable, but I’m curious how it compares to the X-Bolt...and other triggers in general.

My guess is that to get SUB-MOA, you have to have a pretty decent trigger, besides just a great action & barrel.

Anyone shot one or both care to add their two cents?

[bullet]

Vanguard Sub Moa, of course I am not an X bolt fan because I am not an A-bolt fan. Have an A-bolt in a 300WSM Stalker and nothing wrong with it but nothing above average either. It does not out shoot my other rifles in 300WSM and that includes hand loading for it. But I am not a 300WSM fan either and that is after much load development I did using an A-Bolt, Savage, Ruger and Kimber. I do not have the time to go into all the reasons I do not like nor prefer the 300WSM. I am just not impressed with it. But that is my opinion (even though experienced with the cartridge) opinions are like elbows, everybody has a few (unless you are a one armed man).. I would go with the guarantee of the Vanguard Sub Moa and not have to deal with the headaches of wondering if you have a rifle that will shoot. :):)

[Lodiman]

look at the field and stream accuracy issue rating the top 10. The Vanguard submoa won it. out of box with a .378 group averages. I think Icon was 2d and Savage#3.

[257wby]

I’m trying to decide between the Browning X-Bolt and the Weatherby Vanguard SUB-MOA in .300 WSM and am looking for some feedback on the two.

Can anyone tell me about the trigger on the Vanguard SUB-MOA? Everything indicates it’s fully adjustable, but I’m curious how it compares to the X-Bolt...and other triggers in general.

My guess is that to get SUB-MOA, you have to have a pretty decent trigger, besides just a great action & barrel.

Anyone shot one or both care to add their two cents?

I would recommend the SUB-MOA. If the trigger is the same as the regular Vanguard, replace it with a Timney for about $100.00. Any reason why your choosing the 300WSM over the 300 Weatherby?

[Brembo]

I would go to a retailer and compare the feel. look, and weight in your hands and review technical and performance data. I don't care how good a gun shoots, if it feels like junk in my hands I won't use it.

[bullet]

I would go to a retailer and compare the feel. look, and weight in your hands and review technical and performance data. I don't care how good a gun shoots, if it feels like junk in my hands I won't use it.

So, if it does not shoot good, as long as it feels good, that is what matters?????? Frankly I would want both and if I had to choose between feel good in my hands and shoot good, I think I would take the shooter. Reminds me of when people playing basket ball would rather look good shooting than shoot good. Take the shooter but more important take both like the Vanguard, or Icon or the new Savage Classic. They all feel good and shoot good.

[pappabear]

I have an a-bolt in 270 win and sub-moa in 7 rem mag. I like the stock on the sub-moa better. That stock cheek piece is awesome and it shoots. Mine had an poor trigger and got a $45 trigger job and its perfect. But I did the same for my A-bolt-trigger job.

My sub moa is my favorite gun. And yes, out of the box, it won the above referenced article for sub-moa!

[MNDeerhunter]

I would recommend the SUB-MOA. If the trigger is the same as the regular Vanguard, replace it with a Timney for about $100.00. Any reason why your choosing the 300WSM over the 300 Weatherby?

I'm not 100% sure why I do not like the regular .300 Win Mag over the WSM. I guess I feel it's a "bit to much" rifle. Plus, I would imagine that the kick is even more so than the WSM in .300 caliber. Correct or no?

Basically, we hunt in 80 acres in MN that has other land owners on 3 sides. I would rather insure a fast kill with a .300 WSM than my prior rifle (.270 REM 7400 Semi-auto). Given, if you shoot lung to lung or in the vitals, it's not going FAR. Distance is all relative though. We've all seen deer run 50 yards on adrenaline with the top of it's heart blown off. I would rather hit what I shoot with so much force that it completely loses all will once its hit. It just makes everything so much easier, especially for tracking purposes when there is no snow.

Also, my wife's cousin hunts with a .300 WSM Tika and I've seen some of his shots and how far the deer has moved (not many steps after the shot). It left a large impression on me and I guess between that and the ”bit less kick" thought. . . that is how I came to the WSM in the .300. Make sense?

Also, you say..."If the trigger is the same as the regular Vanguard" . . . how would I know that or not? Also, what makes the trigger so bad? Why would they put a crap trigger in there and what makes the "Timney" so great. Sorry, but I' don't know a TON about all this. I guess I'm your typical hunter in that I sight in every year a few weekends before the season starts. I have 2 small children under the age of 3 now, so even getting out for hunting is a "big deal" in my house. Know what I mean?

A the end of the day, I'm looking for something that I can be confident in that if I miss, it's ME and in NO way is the weapon. I'm planning on putting a Burris Black Diamond or Zeiss Conquest on it. Come opener; I can in NO way blame the gun.

[pappabear]

I was not until recently that most guns came with poor triggers. I poor trigger is usually noted by a heavy pull (5 to 7 lbs) and it feels like dragging gravel as you pull. A good hunting trigger usually breaks at about 3.5lbs and breaks crisp. Gun makers are making better triggers these days and better recoil pads-thank goodness. The recoil pad on the sub-moa is great. And the new X-Bolt has a new one for Browning that is good as well.

300 win or 300wsm are both great. Seems like all the triggers are adjustable so you can do it yourself ( if you know how) or take it to a gunsmith and get the trigger perfect. A trigger job is money well spent, 3.5lbs crsip is a wonderful thing and will do more for your accuracy than just about anything.

300wsm makes sense. 300wm makes sense too. Good luck.

[Brembo]

So, if it does not shoot good, as long as it feels good, that is what matters?????? Frankly I would want both and if I had to choose between feel good in my hands and shoot good, I think I would take the shooter. Reminds me of when people playing basket ball would rather look good shooting than shoot good. Take the shooter but more important take both like the Vanguard, or Icon or the new Savage Classic. They all feel good and shoot good.

First - It sounds like you want to insult me or some such. Don't. It will get ugly real quick and no one wants that, right?

Second - As I have stated many times, for me, the gun has to feel right in my hands. A bunch of you just don't get this at all and like to start bs with me, and I can't fathom why. Maybe I need to explain it more.

Normally, or a normal person, has a certain feel and feel is either good for you or not. Do you know what I mean? For some, like myself, it goes beyond the length, weight, balance and gets to the texture of the stock, the shape of the stock, etc.

For me, the gun has to feel good in my hands. It has to have a solid weight without being too heavy, and the stock needs to be the right length or close enough I can fix it with the recoil pad. The length is somewhat important as I have to swing the gun to aim and don't need it catching on brush or trees. This is the first part of the way the gun feels in your hands. If it feels good for you, then you can worry about how does the rest of it feel or take it from there and not care. I care about the rest of it. If the gun feels like junk, appears poorly constructed, doesn't fit right - I won't use it no matter how great it shoots because the shot is usually 1/100th of the time I be utilizing that part of the gun compared to the rest of the time I spend holding, carrying, swinging, etc.

I don't like holding a gun for hours that has a bad texture. A lot of goofballs like spiderwebbing or a fiberglass texture, and I don't. I've gripped a gun so tightly I've gotten imprints of this stuff in my hands before. Plus it just doesn't feel that great after a while. I don't wear gloves when I am shooting because they block the feeling and I rely on everything I can sense because I don't sit there and wait for a deer to come to me - I am hunter, not sitter. Hold a fiberglass stocked gun for 4 hours and you will know how it feels. For me I like the way wood feels when holding, carrying and shooting the gun. Plus its a lot easier to cut the stock back to a length perfect for me if its wood. I don't think anyone makes a LOP that's in my size.

Psychologically, people will begin to shy away from rifles they are uncomfortable with after 2 years. I don't need 80 years of hunting experience to know this, I just need 5 of what I got. I know of (personally in some cases) people, some of them might even be reading this, that have all sorts of rifles in their cases but only shoot one or two. In that group, there are some who if asked "Why don't you use this one?" they will say, "I don't know" and shrug. Regular hunting buddies tend to take one gun every trip and eventually the others are not used. Some will say "well, they don't get the shot enough" or "they are too heavy" etc.

If a gun feels like junk in your hands, you're probably not going to shoot much before you buy another gun. I've seen it, I know it, I can prove it. I should probably write an article now, but I won't.

Therefore, in conclusion, 'see what feels good to you'. I have found that if it doesn't feel good to you, you are not going to use it for long.

[bullet]

First - It sounds like you want to insult me or some such. Don't. It will get ugly real quick and no one wants that, right?

Second - As I have stated many times, for me, the gun has to feel right in my hands. A bunch of you just don't get this at all and like to start bs with me, and I can't fathom why. Maybe I need to explain it more.

Normally, or a normal person, has a certain feel and feel is either good for you or not. Do you know what I mean? For some, like myself, it goes beyond the length, weight, balance and gets to the texture of the stock, the shape of the stock, etc.

For me, the gun has to feel good in my hands. It has to have a solid weight without being too heavy, and the stock needs to be the right length or close enough I can fix it with the recoil pad. The length is somewhat important as I have to swing the gun to aim and don't need it catching on brush or trees. This is the first part of the way the gun feels in your hands. If it feels good for you, then you can worry about how does the rest of it feel or take it from there and not care. I care about the rest of it. If the gun feels like junk, appears poorly constructed, doesn't fit right - I won't use it no matter how great it shoots because the shot is usually 1/100th of the time I be utilizing that part of the gun compared to the rest of the time I spend holding, carrying, swinging, etc.

I don't like holding a gun for hours that has a bad texture. A lot of goofballs like spiderwebbing or a fiberglass texture, and I don't. I've gripped a gun so tightly I've gotten imprints of this stuff in my hands before. Plus it just doesn't feel that great after a while. I don't wear gloves when I am shooting because they block the feeling and I rely on everything I can sense because I don't sit there and wait for a deer to come to me - I am hunter, not sitter. Hold a fiberglass stocked gun for 4 hours and you will know how it feels. For me I like the way wood feels when holding, carrying and shooting the gun. Plus its a lot easier to cut the stock back to a length perfect for me if its wood. I don't think anyone makes a LOP that's in my size.

Psychologically, people will begin to shy away from rifles they are uncomfortable with after 2 years. I don't need 80 years of hunting experience to know this, I just need 5 of what I got. I know of (personally in some cases) people, some of them might even be reading this, that have all sorts of rifles in their cases but only shoot one or two. In that group, there are some who if asked "Why don't you use this one?" they will say, "I don't know" and shrug. Regular hunting buddies tend to take one gun every trip and eventually the others are not used. Some will say "well, they don't get the shot enough" or "they are too heavy" etc.

If a gun feels like junk in your hands, you're probably not going to shoot much before you buy another gun. I've seen it, I know it, I can prove it. I should probably write an article now, but I won't.

Therefore, in conclusion, 'see what feels good to you'. I have found that if it doesn't feel good to you, you are not going to use it for long.


If I wanted to insult you, you would not have had to guess are even think it sounded like and insult because it would have been very clear. My post was tongue and cheek only pointing out that I think that the rifle being a shooter is best but would prefer both which is what I thought you were trying to get at. Mean goes two ways, so take this as an explanation and accept it for what it is.

[buckgitter]

[QUOTE=Brembo;102099]First - It sounds like you want to insult me or some such. Don't. It will get ugly real quick and no one wants that, right?

. A lot of goofballs like spiderwebbing or a fiberglass texture, and I don't.


So if you like spiderwebbing or fiberglass you are a goofball? But YOU don't like to be insulted??????

[MNDeerhunter]

First of, thank you for the advice so far. To those of you who are going back and forth with insulting each other....I mean what else can I saw but consider that you're arguing like children.

No worries either way. You both have valid points, but I think you can state you opinion without giving or taking offense to someone else’s claim.

With regards to the spider webbing, I do NOT really care for it either at first glance. The feel is OK, but I like the dura-touch coating on stocks a lot. Weatherby said I should not try to alter the stock, as it may affect the SUM-MOA accuracy of the gun, which frankly I completely disagree with. Also, the people at Bell and Carlson (who make the stock) said that was a bit nuts as well.

Bell and Carlson said that they can change the surface of the stock to my preference for under $100. Originally, I wanted a SUB-MOA with a Black stock and Weatherby said it wasn't possible to order one that way (and that's from the custom shop themselves). They also said it was a better quality stock, which is very likely true. Looks wise, I'd prefer black with a dura-touch coating, which Bell and Carlson will gladly do for me if I'd like to.

ALSO…FYI….According to Bell and Carlson, Dura-Touch Coating is basically the same as bell and Carlson’s “Max Guard” stocks.

Who knows if I’ll ultimately decide to alter the stock or not. Perhaps the webbing might grow on me? I’m most interested in getting the most accurate set up that looks the best to me. If that means I pay an extra $100 for “vanity”, well, so be it. Why spend the $ you might ask? Other than a 12 gauge slug hunter from Browning and a 20 gauge Browning BPS that I got for my 12th birthday, I do not own any other guns at this time (dad bought my old deer rifle .270). That is why I can justify spending this kind of $ and also spending a bit extra to get it to LOOK and FEEL like I want as well. I simply cannot justify buying more guns in different calibers…..just my preference.