.35 Remington handloaders?

[222Remington]

What have the .35Remington handloaders on this forum found to be the most accurate bullets for a carbine or rifle with Ballard rifling? I understand that some .35Rem pistol shooters have gotten very good results with the 180-grain spire point from Hornady. It seems to me the 200 grain spire might deliver better accuracy. Will appreciate your comments.

[Mark]

You have me at a loss. What does ballard rifling look like?

Is it similar to Pope style rifling?
Mark

[ssghelmick]

Ballard rifilng is typically 6 groove cut rifiling where each groove is cut individually by multiple passes of the cutting head usually to a depth of .004. This method was used by Marlin until somewhere around the 50's when they switched to micro-groove rifiling. Marlin started making Ballard rifles in 1875 and they were among the most accurate rifles of that erra and were used by most match shooters.

Just some more of that useless information I picked up along the way and is still rattling around in my head.

What rifle do you have?

[222Remington]

Thank you, SS, for that explanation of Ballard rifling. Matter of fact, I'm shooting an old Marlin 336SC (sporting carbine) H-series, which I believe was made in 1951 or 1952, just before Marlin brought out micro-groove barrels. I was especially happy to find this rifle because in the back of my mind I figured someday I might want to try cast bullets, which I understand don't work in micro-groove barrels.

In the meantime I hope to tinker with jacketed and see what happens. Any suggestions?

[Mark]

ssgelmick,

Before WWI, that's the way all rifling was produced. Pratt and Whitney made riflers that used this method into WWII.
What I don't know is what the rifling looks like after it is cut (or scraped) into the barrel. There were different configurations of rifling used, Pope had his, and so did Newton. I would bet there were others.

Can anyone explain what Ballard rifling looks like?

And you know what? Sometimes my posts sound a little snotty. This one sounds a little abrupt. I hope there is no offense taken.
Mark

[citori]

Out of a rifle, I would use at least the 200 gr bullets and the 250s are what made the 35 Rem's reputation as a good medium game round (as well as being loaded to a higher velocity than today). I would be a bit leery of the 200 and 250 gr spire points in this round as these seem to have a heavier jacket and appear to be designed more towards the 358 Win and 35 Whelen. Personally, I use more 200 gr bullets in my Rem M-8 and 81 rifles than the 250 as they seem to match the rear sight elevation notches pretty accurately. If I loaded the 250s hotter, they might do the same but with guns 100 and 50+ years old respectively and the poor parts availability, I don't want to stress them over much.
The 180 gr bullets are rather frangible when used in a rifle, They have rather thin jackets which is one reason why they are popular in the pistol with its even lower velocity. I used them in a Rem XP-100 I borrowed to shoot silhouettes for a while, the lesser recoil was also a real plus.
As for the "look" of Ballard rifling, this is driving me crazy. I recently reread an article describing it and it is sitting at the front of my mind but I can't retrieve it. I want to say Ballard has a little deeper groove with a slightly rounded land. When I get a chance to dig the article back up, I'll undoubtedly find myself very wrong and need to print a retraction. Of course, writing something wrong is not necessarily bad as at least a half dozen others will immediately correct that information instead of passing on to a different thread.

[222Remington]

No offense taken, Mark. I cannot answer your question about what distinguishes Ballard rifling from the other types of rifling you mention. I used the expression mainly to differentiate between the traditional cut rifling that SS described with deep grooves and Marlin's micro-groove rifling. Your question is a good one and would make an interesting new thread.

I stand corrected on the business of lead bullets in micro-groove barrels. Some shooters report good results with oversize, gas-checked bullets in hard lead.

Thanks Citori for sharing your experience with the different jacketed .358 bullets. You've probably saved me a few $$$. I'll stick with the more conventional bullets for this caliber in my reloading. I hope you can recall the article on Ballard rifling because I'm interested too.

[ssghelmick]

Mark,

No offence taken. As to what Ballard rifiling looks like or what distinguishes it from other types I haven't a clue. I have never had the privilage of seeing it through a bore scope or read anything describing what it looks like. If I insulted your intelligence with my post it was not intentional.

222Remington,

I dont load for the 35 Rem so I can't give you any useful information on bullet selection. But I can tell you that Marlin has started using Ballard rifiling again in some models for the shooters who like using cast lead and the reports I have read state that both work equally well with Ballard rifiling.

Citori,

I hope you find this information, I am very interested.

[citori]

I couldn't find the article I was thinking of, it was not in the information I thought. What I did find was a brief history of Marlin Firearms from the Levergun Journal. It seems the Ballard rifling is 6 grooves hand cut one at a time to a distance of .004". It is different than Pope and others in the shape, width, depth, number, and spacing of the lands and grooves. In the mid-1950s Marlin adopted the MicroGroove rifling for its guns starting with the 22 rimfires. Micro-Groove was meant to be a faster means of producing a barrel. It consisted of cutting 16 or more smaller and shallower grooves than with previous types. This was the standard type of rifling until about 1997 when the Ballard type was re-introduced in calibers larger than .30. There was no reason given for the change though improvements in technology (likely due to wearing out of machinery) is responsible in part. The Micro -Groove does provide good accuracy with lead bullets with a couple of caveats: the bullets need to be slightly oversized to fully fill the bore, they need to be gas checked, and they need a BHN rating of at least 12. I have also heard from a different CAS source that if a harder bullet is used and velocity is kept low (I'm guessing it is in the 1600 fps range as that is where leading seems to become a problem), one can get by without the gas check.
I'm getting closer to what Ballard rifling is, I just don't know the shape.

[Mark]

Thanks guys, for the effort. I can't find what Ballard rifling looks like either, although I haven't exhausted every source.

I do know Micro-groove rifling was one of the first types of rifling produced by running a button through. It was shallow by comparison, because Marlin didn't figure out how to control the memory of the steel right away. More grooves, shallower, was the answer. It worked OK, but like Citori mentioned, not super for cast bullets.

The old time, late 1890's rifling was made for lead. They didn't have copper jacketed bullets yet, and the modern stuff was that nasty Cupro-nickel jacketed stuff. (German silver. LOL) The real red hot sportsmen of the day were participating in Schutzen (sp?), and that was lead, or even paper patched bullets.

I just love this old time stuff. I don't want to be cured, just relieve the symptoms.
Mark

[horizontal_bowhunter]

[QUOTE=Mark;64413]Thanks guys, for the effort. I can't find what Ballard rifling looks like either, although I haven't exhausted every source.

I do know Micro-groove rifling was one of the first types of rifling produced by running a button through. It was shallow by comparison, because Marlin didn't figure out how to control the memory of the steel right away. More grooves, shallower, was the answer. It worked OK, but like Citori mentioned, not super for cast bullets.

The old time, late 1890's rifling was made for lead. They didn't have copper jacketed bullets yet, and the modern stuff was that nasty Cuthe ballard cut rifling accomodates cast bullets and allows for slower velocities to still be accurate. It also allows you to use heavier bullets, which might offer more stability at longer distances, but 200-300 yards was never the intent of the pistol calibers. A stout load behind a 265 grain JSP, chambered for .44mag, in a carbine length barrel should be good to go for up to 150 yards. Anything longer and gravity plays a bigger part. There is only so much powder you can get into a short cartridge, so weight will have a larger factor in its knock down power at farther distances.pro-nickel jacketed stuff. (German silver. LOL) The real red hot sportsmen of the day were participating in Schutzen (sp?), and that was lead, or even paper patched bullets.

[tjen]

Ballard or micro grove won't matter for jacketed bullets. The 336D has microgrove and the 336LTD has ballard. I shoot the 336D 18.5" and ported and why a 35 rem needed porting is a mistry to me but.

The most accurite is the speer 180/220gr hotcores but the 200gr corelokt is by far my most favorite for hunting. 40.0grs of H4895 and the 200gr rem goes 2180fps start low but 39.0-40.5gr makes great hunting rounds for rifles like the 336, 760, 7600, The speers need 2300 plus velocities to expand fast enough for deer. I shot some but their are to slow to expand on deer for me, but for bear and elk their tops! If your hunting with the 180gr speers H322 will give the best velocity 2300-2400fps check the marlin owners forum and do a search on 35 remintons posts. And check there and beartooth bullets for cast bullet selections both types can and do shoot cast very accuritly. PS i dont shot cast bullets but ranchdog if he posts here does.