ESPN Dog or Great Dog(to you)

[tommy]

I want to know are there more ESPN Type hunting dogs owned by everyday Joe Hunter(no trainers) with some type of formal paid for or not training! who is under control 97% of the time or more. Or.....

More hunting dogs in the great dog ( to me) type with informal training, ie, owner works with dog in spare time. Great in your eyes, but wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in **** of even filling out the app. for ESPN.

Mines the Great dog!(to me) just curious!

If you dont know or are confused thats ok,Its not a trick question!

[Mathiot]

Yeah I do. My Dad was on espn three times a week about 20 years ago. He was a professional dog trainer and hunter. In fact Cabelas sales two of his dog traing videos. Training your labrador retreiver basic and advanced. His name his Mike Mathiot. He also has dove hunting, quail hunting, deer hunting, and several other videos he did. A few of those videos were shown on espn. My Dad was all so the western regional director for quail unlimited for some time in the 80's. Out here in California where he was living then. Then in sometime in the 80's he started working for BLM, where he was a wet lands cordinator. My Dad is very well known for his expert drog training and hunting. He made it his mission in life to to do whatever he could to conserve wild life population. In Wyoming there is a wet lands complex named after him, to honor him for the work he did to to help get the project done. It's called the Mike Mathiot wet lands complex. My Dad acheived many things in is short life. He will be remembered for all his talents in training and hunting, and for all the work he did in conservation. He died 12/27/95 in Boise Idaho where he resided at the time.
But as for your question; I train dogs too. The same way my Dad tought me. I will never be as good as he was, but I can do it. Any way, my name is Michelle Mathiot I'm the daughter of the best dog trainer and hunter there ever was. I want nothing more then to train dogs just like my Dad. Take care

[lumberjackjim]

Tommy,

Which do you see more of, the last time I seen a dog who’s hind end hit the ground and directed it’s undivided attention in the direction of a whistle, awaiting another command and did this consistently I was watching T.V. But I’ve been witness to amazing things in the field preformed by dogs who have hade little more than informal obedience training, one hole **** of allot of stick fetchen and a brief introduction to birds. In my eyes in so many ways it’s the owner that makes the dog, I’ve had a couple dogs that just stand out in my mind as dogs that just new what I was thinking. Ironically those were the ones that I spent the most time with and I’m not talking about time spent in training sessions I’m talking about camping trips, fishing trips, hikes, Sunday drives to the lake for a swim, winter days spent curled up at your feet as you watch the snow fall out side your window from beside the fire and whatever other time can be spent with them. My guess is that there is many more great (to me) dogs out there by far than the dummy finding machines that you see on ESPN because there allot of guys like me out there who have fences that need building, houses that need new roofs and a full time job to tend to. I only get too spent about four hours a weak with my new dog but I think that will be enough to make her great to me.

[HAIKU_RODNEY]

I have one of those great dogs (to me). The public area that I hunt does not have a lot of birds. I still hunt every Saturday during bird season just for the joy of being with my dog. My dog trained me more so than I trained my dog. I learned that my dog has a good nose and will hold point for a long time. She ranges a lot farther than most people like. I like it because I hunt alone but still cover a lot of territory. I have a bell on her so when the bell stops ringing, I just head over to her.

You should see how excited she gets when we head out to hunt. She gets so excited she starts shaking. I have to hike about half a mile in before I can start hunting. During the walk she will usually rin ahead and then turn around and bark at me, kind of like hollaring at me to hurry up.

[citori]

My dogs are much closer to the ESPN type dog mentioned than the latter one. It does not take much work to get a dog to near that level, as little as a half hour a day can do wonders. A dog that is in the hands of a pro trainer is not worked for hours a day; that trainer likely has 20 dogs and each one needs work. Figure a half hour a day and that is 10 hours just in training time for ALL the dogs, not one. The reason most "pet" dogs are not trained to a fair degree is the lack of commitment on the part of the owner. As mentioned, as little as a half hour a day can lead to huge dividends. Few owners try to do this and of those that do, even fewer have a plan or goal in mind. Just working on basic obedience will get one a dog that is head and shoulders above the majority of the working dogs out there. I hav 4 dogs of my own, on the typical day I put in about a half hour working on something with the two youngest dogs and a half hour every other day with the two oldest. I also go to a focused training session about once a week with one of the training clubs I'm a member of, there I do more involved training that requires an assistant, equipment I don't have, or good water for retrieves. With that. I expect a dog to earn a Prize I in North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association, place in AKC hunt tests, or be competitive in National Shoot to Retrieve Association events. With a bit of exposure on wild birds, they learn how to handle them with success. The biggest hinderance to a dog reaching its potential is the owner not taking the time to do even minor training, the owner not being consistent in his/her expectations, and the owner not developing a set of goals and objectives along with a plan to meet them.

[tommy]

Citori:
You may have a good point and Im guilty as charged! I could and should make 30 min. a day for training time, So Ill try harder.
Thanks for the scolding, Boomer thanks you too!

[flocknocker]

I dont make enough time for my dog training, just dont have the time......I am usually out of town 6 days a week with work. I did make time for some training last week and did work with her a little this week. During the summer I just dont have the time. But once september hits that is when I say no to work and hit the fields. As soon as my dog sees me get close to the gun cabinet she has a seizure, let alone take a gun out. As far as the dogs you see on tv and the dog i got....I seen field trial dogs hunt, and I am not impressed, now dont get me wrong there are some good ones out there. My dog is versatile and will hunt ducks and geese all day, then the next day hunt pheasants, grouse and woodcock. There is a big difference between trial dogs and hunting dogs and a good honest trainer will tell you that.......

[citori]

There is a big difference between trial dogs and hunting dogs and a good honest trainer will tell you that.......

Like dogs and trainers themselves, there are also major differences between trials: some are shooting, some not; some require certain performance standards, some not; some promote a certain style of hunting, some are more rounded; and the list goes on. Then there is the differences between trials, tests, and "championships" which many also clump into the same grouping due to ignorance. The biggest difference I see between "trial dogs" and "hunting dogs" is the trial dogs generally have much better manners and obedience in the field. Given experience, "trial dogs" tend to learn to accomplish tasks much quicker and better than "hunting dogs" as, like professional athletes compared to someone off the street, they have the basics down and enough "training experiences" to adjust. I primarily hunt test my dogs and they have both many high place prizes and awards in the testing fields and are excellent and well behaved hunters in the game field. Spending a half hour to 45 minutes a day on each dog is about all that is needed for a good, well mannered, hunting dog. If one can't bother to spend that amount of time with their dog, I would have to question if a dog is the right pet for them.

[flocknocker]

Like dogs and trainers themselves, there are also major differences between trials: some are shooting, some not; some require certain performance standards, some not; some promote a certain style of hunting, some are more rounded; and the list goes on. Then there is the differences between trials, tests, and "championships" which many also clump into the same grouping due to ignorance. The biggest difference I see between "trial dogs" and "hunting dogs" is the trial dogs generally have much better manners and obedience in the field. Given experience, "trial dogs" tend to learn to accomplish tasks much quicker and better than "hunting dogs" as, like professional athletes compared to someone off the street, they have the basics down and enough "training experiences" to adjust. I primarily hunt test my dogs and they have both many high place prizes and awards in the testing fields and are excellent and well behaved hunters in the game field. Spending a half hour to 45 minutes a day on each dog is about all that is needed for a good, well mannered, hunting dog. If one can't bother to spend that amount of time with their dog, I would have to question if a dog is the right pet for them.
If one can't bother to spend that amount of time with their dog, I would have to question if a dog is the right pet for them. I don't believe the opinion of spending the right amount of time with a dog was asked of you. If you have a dog that can sit and fetch you can get a junior hunt title. I think my neighbors cat sits now we can just teach her to fetch and its in the bag. I see alot of trial dogs in the field where I hunt at and its just amazing how many birds are missed.

[citori]

I'm sorry if I ruffled a few feathers but I stand by my opinion regarding making time to spend with one's dog. As for giving unasked for opinions, I guess you are just as guilty regarding the abilities of "trial dogs".
To further hijack the thread, I agree that gaining a Junior title is not overly onerous but it is not the piece of cake you allude to it be.
It is also surprising on how many birds every dog misses, none find them all. Even the wild canines who's survival depends on the detection of game regularly pass by their quarry. Those animals that are food for others have developed rather good survival skills in order to continue their species existence. That is in addition to the vagaries of scent which are only poorly understood by us humans at best.
Again, taking as little as a half hour total per day is really all that is needed to produce a decent, well mannered dog and something I feel is possible for anyone to do; after all, one does spend time with the dog in some fashion and what's to say it can't be focused on learning? All the dog wants is attention from the owner and it doesn't care if it has to do something for it or not. Again, it is a matter of imagination and thought, if the owner can't do it, then whomever is watching the dog should be able to do so.

[Phsnthntr]

I'll settle for the great dog to me if he:
Cries with joy and excitement every time he sees me in my hunting clothes, or I bring out the gun case
Comes on command.
Heels to and from the vehicle
Hunts within shooting range or will hold point until you get within range (Sometimes the birds don't cooperate so not too far out of shooting range)
Is a thorough and patient hunter
Marks and at least locates kills (hunts dead)
Hunts, locates and secures cripples or points the woodchuck/badger hole they ran down.
Does not lift his leg on my pant leg when I miss a shot or give me "that look"
If he retrieves to hand that's great, but I can walk 30-40 yards to pick up a bird and not mess up the type of hunting I do
I also want a dog that can ride on the seat next to me if he isn't all muddy, and still be OK with riding in the crate if that's what's called for.

[Fielddog]

Well ladies and gentlemen we have here the age old question from whence field trials,tests and the like sprang from;that being is my dog better than yours?from the posts there is no clear definitive winner there can not be for this argument has been going on from the days of our first Caveman/Wolf team to the present day.In Citori I see what I used to be and strived for taking an unknown entity and turning that dog into the best animal it can become.In essence Citori is becomming or is a dog man as opposed to someone who hunts with a dog.This is a compliment for we need the "dog men/women" to show and develop the finest examples of that teamwork.It takes committment,time,and a plan to bring this training together.I have trailed,trained and guided over bird dogs for 30years and yet to be honest and frank the key ingredient for any birddog is it's genetic profile.A dog from 100% working stock will come through wether it is involved in intese training or is the family dog that also hunts when given the chance.So here is a toast to all our dogs may yours be all that you desire and your seasons together be full of memories.As surely as the sun sets so does the heart beat of your dog and your favourite coverts feel a little more lonely.Fielddog

[citori]

Thanks Fielddog,
I don't really consider myself a true "dog person" as I don't find the highest levels to be all that great of an objective any more. I test throughout the off season as a means of keeping my dogs' skills and conditioning up, not for awards. I find that the more focused things I do with my dogs, the better they do and winning something comes as a fortunate consequence. I learned long ago from a dog owner living in downtown Chicago that I had two choices in spending "quality" time with my dogs; I could spend it sitting in front of the TV with a beer in my hand and the dogs at my feet or I could take that time to run them through basic to advanced obedience drills, some rudimentary tracking excercises, blind retrieve/"hunt dead" tests, water retrieves/search, or other skill sets that came to mind. As I lived in town at the time, I had access to training birds only once per week at best through the summer. Since the obedience part was down pat, the full amount of time I had available for bird work was put totally to this purpose, not obedience. In this time I had my greatest "successes" with my dogs, I had a NAVHDA Versatile Champion and was four points from an AKC Master Title in my wirehair and had an AKC Master title as well as a NAVHDA Utility Prize I in my English Setter as well as points in the NASTRA events I was able to attend. Since then I have had another NAVHDA VC and 5 UT Prize I versatile dogs, 4 Master Hunter English Setters, and one MH Pointer. I have not changed my program much at all, I still do 15 minutes to a half hour a day with each competition age dog though I now live in the country and they see birds about every other day instead of once a week. The negative is that I don't have much to add to what the others are talking about around the water cooler at work when it comes to TV shows.

[Fielddog]

Citori you really have only one more step to take and that is a hurdle that some won't attempt.That step is to enter the rasnks as professional,however the training then becomes a job and you leave the basic I got a hunting dog world behind.With what you just stated you got the principles down and know how to bring the potential out.The question is could you read another person's dog and bring them into full form.Not having anything to talk about at the water cooler or in my case at the coffee pot is a blessing at times(LOL).Keep up the dog program and enjoy your rewards and if you do go pro all the best.Fielddog.

[citori]

Maybe when I retire but likely not. Being a professional trainer is too much like the dairy farm I grew up on; a job 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I do some training of others' dogs and I find it very rewarding but in the back of my mind I know I can always walk away if I really wanted. I have tried turning wellliked hobbies into a profession in the past and I don't seem to do most of those activities any more. I'll just stay as I am as Dirty Harry so eloquently put it, "A man's got to know his limitations."

[Fielddog]

I know where you come from that's why I took up guiding it allowed me to train my dogs to a level that got the job done.Since it was seasonal it just added to my outdoor experience the only professional aspect of dogs for me is my kennel and the quality Springers that I breed from time to time.Once and a while I'll take on a challenge to bring out trainer inner self,last year I worked on a gun nervous springer that some were ready to give up on.He now works real well,the whole secret was simple this dog loved finding birds all I did was let him find flush and start to chase then introduced the gun in a fun no pressure proper sequence.Any ways you take care and enjoy your dogs and whatever the dog world may bring.Fielddog