Antler Restrictions

[airborne]

The nice thing about talk forum's is that they are commercial free. Well at least I thought so until I saw an advertisement for tanning. I wonder what the fee would be for me to advertise my business. Maybe this one just slipped through.

Now for the question.... I live in Western PA and a lot of guys are complaining that the deer herd is very low. Is anyone else in this part of PA seeing a change in the herd size?

We also have an antler restriction. I have not noticed an increase in the size of the racks. Has any other state tried this and how has it worked out as far as rack sizes and an increase in the number of bucks?

[Brent]

The post will be looked at in the morning when the administers come back to work..... We don't have any size restrictions in Nebraska. We have some specials on Doe only permits where you can buy one and get one free around the main river channel that goes through the state, b/c deer are very thick in the area. Other than that a buck has to have at least like a few inches of antlers if you have a buck only permit.

Sorry wasn't any help to the antler limits, since we don't have any.

[Suka]

Here in Alberta years ago there was a restriction on Mule deer, minimum 3 pt (min. 3 pt, one side, not incl. brow tine). Don't know if it actually increased the herd size, made for bigger bucks though. Has since been rescinded in most zones, suspect because there were too many fork bucks found dead, I know I spent a lot of time waiting for a 3rd point to grow in the bino's. Rule of thumb was if you could hang your wedding ring on it, it was a point, but it came down to a judgement call in the field.
Now an antlered deer is, well, antlered. Supposed to be min. 5" long, so longer than the ears it's a legal buck. Same for both mule and whitetail.
Some zones still have point restiction on deer, all have it on elk. Most zones we have a draw system, where I like to hunt deer, you only get drawn for a buck tag once every 3 years. That has definitely increased the herd size. Only catch is then to control the herd they tend to let out a swack of doe tags, makes for ww3 on opening day most places.

[airborne]

Our state is broken up into wild life management units. Certain ones require a minimum of four points on one side. A point has to be a minimum of one inch. It is very hard to tell from the side if all the points you see are from the same side. There is a $25 fine if you shoot a buck that doesn't meet the requirements. I think a lot of guys just walk away. We can hunt the heck out of deer. Archery comes in the first of OCT for buck and doe, then there is a week of early muzzel loader in Nov for doe, then two weeks of rifle for buck and doe. and then another month of muzzle loader for buck and doe. After all this, there are areas called RED tag where you can hunt deer the rest of the year, except for a short period in the sring when they are giving birth. Now everyone wonders why they are not seeing much.

Hunting was a lot more fun when the deer were more plentyful.

[Yooper]

As the name implies, I'm originally a Michigan boy. The Great Lakes state only has an antler restriction on your second buck. It must have 4 points, 1 " or greater on one side. Your first buck can be any buck with legal points. But the spikes have to be 3" or better. They have a combo license that allows you to shoot a buck and if it's big enough, you can tag it as your 2nd buck, allowing you to still take a spike...

The big thing with antler restrictions is quality deer management. I'm a fan of QDM when it's done right. You need to take everything into account when implimentng a plan. It's not just age of the deer, it's the genetics, the diet, the quality of the habitat. Plus the buck-to-doe ratio... I used to practice QDM when I hunted Michigan but then all the scares from CWD and Bovine TB led the state to issue so many doe tags that the deer population is wrecked. I can't say that I totally blame the state, but the population took such a hit, it'll take years for it to bounce back. And the problems of TB and CWD are stilll there. As Homer Simpson would say: DOH!

[OhioOutdoorsman]

I think airborne and Yooper hit the nail on the head. Its the increased doe permits in PA and not the antler restrictions that make you see fewer deer. Here in OH, we have a 4 month archery season, a 7 day shotgun season during post rut when deer actvity is low, a 4 day muzzlerloader season between christmas and new year's (no one goes), and no rifle. You can take 2-3 deer in most counties, but only one buck. You see a lot of deer but very few bucks and very rarely a buck bigger than a small 6-pointer. And while you see lots of deer, you have a good shot at only a few of them because most of the time you have a bow in your hand. If we had a 2 week rifle season, it would be a massacre. My hunting buddies, who hunt maybe 12 or so bow days and 2 gun days a year, get a deer maybe 40-50% of the years they hunt. Everyone gets 1-2 good shots a year at a deer. In 10 years of hunting, none of us has a wall-hanger. (Well, one of my friends mounted a small 8-pointer) QDM works but I think its not in line with the values of the average deer hunter who simply wants to get a deer and would rather be sucessful more often than get a chance at a trophy.

I also think that habitat is usually the limiting factor. Here in OH we have good habitat, mixed crops/woods with lots of edge habitat. Two deer births are pretty typical, and three deer births are not uncommon. We took SEVEN doe (no bucks) from a 160 acre abondoned farm last year and there seem to be even more deer this year than last. When I go to PA and NY, I typically see one doe and one fawn/yearling.

[BULLSEYE]

sory about that

i think the antler restriction should be you shouldnt take a muly under 160 class and a whitetail under 150 class. let other hunters come on land a let them cole out the bad genetic bucks and plant a protien plot hope you can use this info!

[airborne]

I just bought 8 acres and plan on planting a deer plot. What types of grass would work well in PA? Iam also going to put up a couple turkey feeders. It isn't my plan to hunt over this, I just want to see bigger deer and more turkey.

PA used to have a three day doe season and hunting was great. Now that the population is so low, it is not uncommon to see a deer by it's self. Most hunters say it is hard to tell size and age without another deer to compair it too. That has resulted in a large number of button buck being shot. I sometimes wonder if the deer herd was reduced to please insurance companies and reduce accidents. I hear more and more guys saying they are not going to hunt for a couple years. This will probably raise the cost of license.

Our buck to doe ratio is way off. On TV you see hunters using buck grunts, rattling antlers and all. In PA, if you do that the doe run away, and the buck could care less. There is very little competition in the herds for the buck since there are so few. The PA game commission had a solution " If there are few deer in your area, then move to another one" Well since we have to buy doe tags for a certain area and they are limited, you can not hunt another Management Unit.

I guess if the answer was easy, we wouldn't be complaining, We would be Hunting!!!

[beeell]

The good thing about Antler restrictions is that eventually you'll start to see bigger deer. The bad thing is you won't see the bigger deer unless you're very lucky or a top notch outdoorsman with a lot of time to spend in the field. Because the bigger/older a deer gets, the more elusive he becomes during the hunting seasons. It really is a double edge sword for the average nimrod. Michigan has some really big deer, especially in the southern portion of the state. the biggest problem we have here is mismanagement of the herd. The DNR lets the huge agricultural and insurance communities dictate to the polititians about how the deer herd should be culled for the entire state, and not the wildlife biologists like it was supposed to be. Michigan has three distinct zones and it needs to be managed as such.

[Frank Ross]

Morning,

I got a heads-up from a user and whacked the tanning ad yesterday. Actually, I removed it entirely instead of leaving a note as to why. Since the thread reads wierd without it, thought I should just add a note. I've got no tag limit on bagging unauthorized posting of commercial links. No season bag, no daily limits.

For me, it's just cannon fodder and I don't mind pulling the trigger.

Those who are tempted to try and use this forum to fatten their wallets should consider that your post will be removed and if I think it is warranted, I'll ban the user. In extreme cases I will block an IP address.

Let's all have fun, stay within the boundaries of good taste as well as site rules, and no one will catch the scent of cordite.

FR

[OhioOutdoorsman]

To me, reducing deer herds to prevent traffic accidents and allowing people to have sucess more often in the field far a outweigh the benefits of doing QDM so that a a minority of fanatic hunters can get a deer with a big rack. Anything we can do to improve the image of hunting and make hunting more enjoyable for novice hunters is something we should do. Besides QDM makes a big rack less of a trophy. There is a fine line between hunting and herding.

[airborne]

Frank,

You are a natural born killer.

I have only seen three huge buck in my life time. A 12 pt, a 10 pt, and a nice big 8 pt. None of which I was able to get a shot at. My brother did get the 10 pt. I have talked to guys that have shot what they call the buck of a lifetime. After that, hunting didn't seem the same to them. One of my buddies just moved back to PA from Utah and he is suprised at how small our deer are here. We don't have mulies only whitetail. I guess it is ok to wait a lifetime to get the big one.

[OhioOutdoorsman]

The only large buck I have ever seen was when I was looking at plots in a suburban housing development. A monster 14 pointer with felt still on.......thats what happens when no hunting is allowed in an area I guess. However, my hunting buddies and I have a rule that you can add 2 points a year for every year that passes for every deer you have ever seen when referencing a deer you have seen before. So that 6-pointer I saw 5 years ago is a 16-pointer now. I guess I've seen lots of big bucks now that I think about it.................

[airborne]

Now Now, OhioOutdoorsman,I have driven past Revenna and I saw several huge Buck... On the other side of the fence. I am in the Army National Guard and we train over there at the old Ammo Depo. Last year we saw several huge buck. They were everywhere. It was nothing to see 12 pts. One of our soldiers got a permit to hunt, that fall, and when the big day was over he had seen exactly zero buck. What a bust... These butes are caged and protected. As you know, the base is huge but surrounded by high fences, so it isn't like seeing them in your back yard. It is , however as close to seeing a buck that size in the wild as one can get. For those of you who do not know the base, it is aprox 11 miles long and 5 miles wide. Boys now that is a lot of fence.

[OhioOutdoorsman]

I do almost all of my hunting in SE ohio......the buck i was referring to was seen in Stow, OH. Maybe I should do more hunting around where I live (Akron). I wasn't saying there wasn't big bucks in Ohio. The record books would say OH is one of the best states for big bucks. All was saying is that I haven't seen them. Hmmm....Ravenna......ever do any hunting at West Branch Resevior near Ravenna? How about Grand River Wildlife Area? I go there shooting. I onlyhave hunted there one day, didn't see anything.

[airborne]

I haven't had the honor to hunt in OH yet. At Revenna you draw for a buck or doe tag and a certain day to hunt on. You have to hunt with a partner. The day of the hunt, they draw for your hunting spot. Yes spot, you are not permitted to walk around where ever you want. This is leaves it all up to luck. You get no chance to scout around. It must be worth it cause a lot of people apply. I only live 25 Miles from the OH, PA Line. Several of my buddies cross over for turkey and OH hunters come over for ours. I just wish the cost wasn't so high for border states. Did you get the big buck this year? No luck so far for me. This Sat. is the last day of rifle. On 26 Dec flintlock muzzleloader comes in and the hunt will be on!!!

[OhioOutdoorsman]

No buck this year yet. That Ravenna Depot hunt sounds interesting but potentially fustrating to me. Is it open for archery or just for bow season? I haven't hunted PA. Only OH and NY. Have you done any bear hunting? Spent some time on Oil Creek and Hickory Creek trout fishing this summer and was wondering how the bear/deer hunting is in eastern PA. I've always been jealous of PA residents for the trout, bear, and rifle hunting you have.

[joeROTORrn]

Was glad I came across this post, was just about make a similar post. I too grew up hunting in NW Pa, mostly in Warren and Erie Counties. There is NO doubt the deer population is WAY down in NW Pa. When I first began hunting with my Dad when I was 12 (37 now) it was nothing to see HEARDS of deer with numbers well above 20 in a group or more. i even remember my first ever opening day of buck being totally surrounded by somewhere near 50 DEER ! Now even if your spotting at night your lucky to find a group of more than 5. I did however hear of some activists that burned their doe permits in piles on the county commisioners front steps in several counties. ( I plan on doing the same next year.) As far as the antler restrictions, I do believe those to be working. I HAVE seen many more and bigger bucks every year since it went into effect. Anybody else hear about the doe permit burning?

Joe

[Brent]

Now even if your spotting at night Joe

I hope you were coon hunting!

[joeROTORrn]

In Pa you can spot until midnight. No weapons allowed in vehicle of course.

[airborne]

Well I got a nine point today. Finally, I was suppose to be pushing deer but I thought it was my turn to sit. When the guys asked how far in the woods I was, I told them I had been sitting. I started to walk and within 20 yards a nine point appeared and met his match. Nice head shot with a 270.

Didn't bear hunt this year. I couldn't get off work. Most of our bears are in north central PA. Four were shot in Mercer county. PA had a record take this year due to the amount of mast and warm weather. The tally isn't out yet but everyone says a lot were taken. Don't know what the biggest size was.

I don't think I would burn my doe tag. We select harvest in our family. Let it go and let it grow is what we hunt by. We look at the size of the face and let the young ones go. We also will not shoot at a doe unless they are in groups. That way you can pick out the largest and reduce the chance of shooying a button buck.

[joeROTORrn]

CONGRATS AIRBORNE !!! My Uncle got one this am as well in Erie Co. .

[OhioOutdoorsman]

You can spot until midnight in PA? With a two week rifle, a week long muzzleloader, and a weeklong flintlock, no wonder deer populations are down. With those liberal game rules, I'm going to have to seriously think about getting an out of state PA liscence next year.

[airborne]

We can spot until 2300 hrs and not during the rifle season. Go to www.pgc.stste.pa.us you can look at our season for deer. Keep in mind the redtag season for deer. It runs the rest of the year on farms market for crop damage. Why someone would want to shoot a deer in Feb or after is beyond me. The racks fall off in Feb and the doe are carrying fawns. Some say the farmers are going to shoot them anyhow so why not get them for the meat. I don't know if this is right or wrong.

[Bryan_Buckmaster]

I think the decrease in herd size is a pretty common thing. Here in my area of NC the herd sizes are much smaller than when I was younger (33 now). Too many Rambos in the woods that will shoot anything that moves. I get really frustrated with alot of the hunters around here. No concern for herd management just how many deer can I shoot. The largest group I have seen this year is 3. It was not uncommon to see 15 and 20 animals at a time when I was a teenager.

[airborne]

Bryan, we feel your pain in PA too. When I was a kid (44 now) we saw herds of 25 or 30. There was no complaining of crop damage and all. Now we see herds of 5 to 10. During hunting season, the largest group I saw was 5 together. All of them were doe. I heard rumors that PA may go back to a three day doe season, instead of the two week one we have now. I think that would be great. Now some area's are very heavy with doe because you cann't hunt in populated areas or the area is posted. I think these should be special hunt areas and the landowners encouraged to open their land up to restricted hunting.
The Game Commisions solution was to issue more tags than can be sold for these places, but what good does it do if you can not hunt there. A consideration is to open these places up to archery only (due to the population and houses). Right now the PGC says move if you don't see enough deer in your management unit. Easier said than done.

[Bryan_Buckmaster]

We have a month of bow season then a week of black powder (no such thing as true black powder anymore) followed by a month of rifle season. You can shoot 6 deer a year legally but no more then two bucks. Some of the hunters around here will imply (won't come right out and admit it) that they shoot more than six and just don't report them. Between the long season and the illegal hunters, it is no wonder that the deer are disappearing.

[airborne]

We can only shoot one buck and one doe. The game commission sells a certain number of tags for each management unit. After the first sell, they open it up for extra tags and out of state request. Sometimes you can get thatextra tag but often you don't. First come first serve. The problem is, we can hunt deer for four months straight. Archery, then inline, then rifle, a two week break and then flintlock for 3 weeks. Believe it or not, a lot of hunters still do not get a deer. Or as we call them speed beef.

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Here in OH, I am seeing more and more deer over the 10 years I have been hunting. In fact some of the 'burbs are now allowing archery hunting becasue deer-vehicle accidents and quite frankly the grazing in suburban gardens is such a problem. I may be getting to be a better hunter, but thats only part of it. I have not seen many big bucks, or bucks period. Old timers that I talk to say its not as good as it used to be and talk of the "herds" of deer. The only place I've seen a "herd" of deer is on TV over a we manicured food plot and in my grandfather-in-law's orchard in the 'burbs where hunting is not allowed durring pre-rut before buck dispersal. I don't choose to hunt that way. If I were a farmer protecting my crops, I'd feel differently. We only have a week of shotgun, four days of blackpowder, and four months of archery. If you compare the number of deer taken to the number of deer tags issued here the ratio is always about 1/4 to 1/3. Its hard to be sucessful, primary because of the limited time/weapons you can use. I like it that way. Hunting should be a challenge and a trophy should require a trophy effort. If numbers are down in other states I say they need to reduce the length of the seasons of the weapons that you can use, not have antler restrictions and increased doe tags, like PA. But then again providing in-state hunters with lots of deer may not be the PGC's main priority.......

[airborne]

Maybe it is the reduced living area that also affects the herd size. With more people out in the woods walking jogging and such, maybe the deer feel pressured more and have moved else where. I hear more hunters saying they have less time to scout and less time to hunt then before. Your right in saying that a throphy buck should require a throphy hunt. The increased doe season has taken it's toll on the button bucks.

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Mmmmm.....I might have to disagree with the deer feeling pressured part. I see tons of deer in the suburban parks. My wife and I always drive through parks around dusk and always see deer, multiple groups of them in fact. These are the same parks that people jog, bike, drive, and picinic through all day long. No hunting (they call in sharpshooters). You can basically walk up and pet these deer. Deer can become very domesticated. My non-hunting friends think that hunting must be easy and not really sporting because of all the deer that they see that don't spook when approached.

Another example:

My friend and I were hunting in upstate NY a couple of weeks ago for deer/bear. We didn't see a thing for six days of very hard hunting. We decided to go into town to get a hotel for a night after camping the past 6. We were walking from our hotel to a pizza place and saw a fat doe grazing on some bushes in the middle of town. The bushes looked very heavily grazed upon inspection. The doe let us walk within 15ft of her without budging. After dinner, we put the leftover pizza on the patio to keep it cool. I then was overlooking a topo map to plan the next days hunt when I look out on the patio just in time to see a deer head go into the pizza box. We took pictures standing/sitting with this doe next to us while the doe ate our pizza. It hung out with another doe by that room the rest of the evening. It was one of the funniest experiences I've had. I'll post the pictures as soon as I get them from my buddy.

[Bryan_Buckmaster]

I think the longer season with the tougher to use weapons is a good idea. Make rifle season short. During the month of rifle season an absurd amount of deer are taken here. I hunted every evening of the rifle season this year. (I was chasing the largest trophy buck I have ever seen in this area. Didn't get him this year but I learned a lot about him and he is mine next year) I heard a minimum of 10 shots every evening sometimes close to twenty. Lets say they got a deer 50% of the time (probably a little low). That is atleast 5 deer a day for a month and that doesn't include any morning hunters. Saturday mornings sounded like a war zone. That is in just a few square miles that I can hear shots from my stand.

[airborne]

We have a problem with a certain nationality (I will not mention cause I don't want to offend) that push off a patch of woods up to three times to kill all the deer and then they move on. It doesn't happen in my back yard but it does 15 miles away. The only way I figure they are getting so many tags is to buy one for all the family members over the age of twelve and then filling all the tags. One house in particular has killed 12 deer. The land owners are outraged and are now posting the property in this area. After a lot of talking to them, I have convinced them to post it as "Hunting with permission only" instead of no hunting at all. I used to be against shotgun only hunting but I am not sure how I feel now. It may reduce the number of deer killed since they wont be able to shoot much over 100 yds.

[11-87rem]

You can spot until midnight in PA? With a two week rifle, a week long muzzleloader, and a weeklong flintlock, no wonder deer populations are down. With those liberal game rules, I'm going to have to seriously think about getting an out of state PA liscence next year.

Why would you want to hunt Pa when you have ohio? I've been buying an out of state license in Ohio for 15 years now. I don't even hunt buck in Pa,my home state, anymore. I would grade Ohio Buck hunting as a solid A and it has been beautifully managed. My grade for Pa Buck hunting is a D and the management by the PGC has been awful. If you want to hunt another state, try Kentucky.

[OhioOutdoorsman]

I agree, deer hunting is good in OH. I'm only starting to realize this since hunting in other states. I always assumed it was easier to get a deer in states that allow rifle hunting, but now I'm coming to realize that I probably have a better chance with my bow in OH. I was just reading on the PGC site that 80% of yearling bucks were killed during the hunting season before antler restrictions. Now its the 2 1/2 year old bucks getting killed at an 80-90% clip. Thats amazing. Too many deer being killed in my opinion. At least you see deer consistently in OH.

[huntfreak]

The good thing about Antler restrictions is that eventually you'll start to see bigger deer. The bad thing is you won't see the bigger deer unless you're very lucky or a top notch outdoorsman with a lot of time to spend in the field. Because the bigger/older a deer gets, the more elusive he becomes during the hunting seasons. It really is a double edge sword for the average nimrod. Michigan has some really big deer, especially in the southern portion of the state. the biggest problem we have here is mismanagement of the herd. The DNR lets the huge agricultural and insurance communities dictate to the polititians about how the deer herd should be culled for the entire state, and not the wildlife biologists like it was supposed to be. Michigan has three distinct zones and it needs to be managed as such.
Macon county MO is the best example of this statement

[Dclewis]

Ohio,

I would love to see the pics of the Italian deer. Just wondering where in upstate N.Y. you were hunting? I was raised in Delaware county but have since moved to the Hudson Valley area. I can tell you that in upstate regions the populations have had a steady decrease since doing away with the Party permits. Only this year did they start to decrease the kill and implement antler restrictions. I dont bother hunting upstate from here anymore because like you said, you rarely see game. On the contrary, the Hudson Valley has a great population and my favorite spot in Dutchess county is teeming with deer. The big problem there is the overwhelming amount of ticks. You can count on pulling a dozen or two off of you every time you hunt there. Lyme's desease originated in the area I hunt and I think its because of the huge population of deer and other game. I guess its a double edge sword of sorts. Too many deer leads to other problems like ticks and imbreeding. The coyote population has skyrocketed also because of the increase in food for them (namely young deer). I can count on seeing a coyote or two most sittings for deer. The only problem is I can not convince the land owner to let me shoot the coyotes. They believe that the more dogs, the less deer which have ravaged there plantings and gardens.
Perhaps there Is something to be gained from carefull management by individual land owners as opposed to state officals. The way one area needs to be managed can be totaly different in another just a short distance away. The problem I see is educating the land owners who do not allow hunting on there property. Adjacent to my spot is a Huge tract of property owned by a person who is the Poster Person for anti-hunting. The land is absolutly busting with deer and they wont even allow their caretakers to harvest deer. They have even gone as far as harrassing myself and the property owner about hunting the land near theirs. I nicely reminded them that this practice is infact illegal and I would not hesitate to press charges if it continued. I have not seen hide nor hair of them now in three years. Point being, how do we as hunters go about convincing land owners like this that there are problems that need to rectifyed?
Perhaps Ive got off the main topic here but I believe that other problems co-inside with the main question. Just some more food for thought or perhaps a good topic for a new thread.

Dave

[11-87rem]

Don't take this in the wrong light. I'm for kids and the elderly getting additional opportunities. However, it does flaw the antler restriction goal when you allow young hunters and over 65ers to take any buck! Pa has a lot of hunters and I would guess many young bucks fall to this classification of hunters. Most hunters that i communicate with see very little improvement in deer quality. One nicer one taken here and there. Forget trophy class where a buck might have to live 2 more additionall years to get there. No matter how I try, I fail to see a silver lining in any of the clouds hoovering over Pa during the deer season.

[OhioOutdoorsman]

DC -

I'm having some technical difficulties with posting pictures but they should be up soon. I was in the Moose River Recreation Area. The hotel was in Old Forge, NY.

As far as getting access to private land, I have only had sucess the past few months after 8-9 years of trying. The people were coworkers who knew me for a while before they knew I was a hunter. And both view the deer as problems - one has deer eating her garden on a 20 acre suburban plat and the other owns a 200 acre Christmas tree farm and the deer eat the bottom of the trees. In both cases I can only archry hunt and am obliged to shoot the first deer I see since I've agreed to "get rid of the pests" unless its a small buck because I've promised to use my two doe tags for that purpose. In both cases I wasn't dealing with an "anti", but have definitely made pro-hunter from being hunting neutral.