first shotgun for my son

[midwest safari]

My son turns 9 years old in January and is dying to go hunting with his father. I believe he will be ready to hunt in the fall of 2007. I want to get him started this summer. I am considering a 20 ga. I hunt mostly pheasant and deer with an occasional quail, duck and goose. I am just starting to turkey hunt, but the bug hasn't bitten very hard. Deer hunting in Illinois requires a shotgun or a muzzleloader.

I have never owned a shotgun smaller than a 12 ga. I am considering a semi-auto to reduce some of the recoil. Has anyone had any expereince with the new Charles Daly semi-autos? I have not owned one, but I have been seeing more and more of them in the gun shops. This will probably not be his last shotgun, but I want to buy one that he can use for a long time if he chooses. I also want to buy one that will shoot a 3" shell.

Another consideration is a Mossberg. I owned a 12 ga. pump about 20 years ago and was not happy with it. The barrel pitted after one year of use. I used it one year and sold it. Do the new models have better barrels and would it be a good starter gun? If I do not get any positive responses to either of these two, I will probably go to a Remington.

Any comments on a pump versus a semi-auto would also be appreciated, especially from those with kids.

Thanks for your help.

Midwest Safari

[Suka]

When my son was about the same age I got him a youth model Remington Express 20 ga pump. A woman had ordered it and then didn't show, so we got a real good deal on it. Don't know about deer, but for pheasant, ducks, etc., think you'll find it hard to beat. My only experience with semi auto's included mostly clearing jams on the second shot. Pretty hard to beat a remington pump in my opinion, and the youth model is shorter, shorter stock, light, hardly any kick in the 20 ga. In any case, have fun, they grow up fast. I've found hunting with my son is and has been a real treat.

[OhioDeerHunter]

I'd go with a Remington 870 Wingmaster. It's made for bird hunting but my dad and I use it for deer to. Never had any problems with it. It is a very popular gun and comes in different styles than the Wingmaster.

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Given your dual purpose for this gun (deer and bird), I would get a 20 guage pump with an interchangable barrel like a remington 870 express or a mossberg. Many other manufacturers make combos, too. Mossbergs come with a blackpowder option too! Get the slug barrel with a cantaliver scope mount, these are much more accurate than "saddle" mounts like the B-square mounts when using on a gun with interchangable barrels. If I were choosing a gun for one purpose (deer OR bird), I'd get an autoloader to further reduce recoil, but I haven't seen any autoloaders with interchangable barrels and I really think having that rifled slug barrel is important.......you're talking about a 50-75 yrd range with the smoothbore vs 150-200 yd range with the rifled barrel. There have been quantum leaps made in the saboted slug market over the past few years and you need the rifled barrel to take advantage of them.
Getting a pump action would keep down the cost and be perhaps a bit more reliable than the autoloader, too.

Does anyone know of a 20 guage autoloader with an interchangable barrel? I might be in the market for one of those myself as a grouse/rabbit/deer gun.............

[Yooper]

If you're in the market for a combo, check out the Mossberg. You generally get a better deal. Most of the combo's I see have a fully rifled barrel whereaas most of the Remington combo's cost more with a smooth barrel. I may be wrong but when I was selling them, that's what I saw.

Also take a look at the Benelli Nova. I think it's a better pump gun than either the Mossberg or the Remington and it is available in a youth 20... Plus they have recoil reducers and all that good stuff.

As far as going with a semi-... If you decide to go that route, take a serious look at what Berretta offers in a youth 20. I've seen these for as little as $350, but you'd have to look.

Charles Daly-s are good guns although I've heard they can be a pain if they break becuase getting parts can take forever if you can even get them.

Mossbergs have improved greatly and are on par with Remington's as for as quality goes. PLus they have a better safety system, especially when talking youth guns.

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Just to clarify my previous post.......my only regret about any gun that I have bought is not getting a cantiliver scope for my 870 express rifled slug gun. If you're not going to get a rifled barrel its not an issue because you can get away with iron sights for your smoothbore (foster) slugs. The problem is that every barrel thats screws into place has some "wobble" to it or will quickly develop with even normal handling (cycling of the pump, etc). This makes the barrel and therefore bullet placement vary erratically when you are using a breech mounted scope that doesn't "wobble" along with the barrel.

There is nothing wrong with using foster slugs. In fact, it'll probably teach your son to be a better deer hunter because he'll have to pay more attention to things like deer sign, wind, stand placement, scent control, etc because he'll have to get closer to deer.

Fun can be had with any gun you'll get him.

On the safety issue, I recently was talking with a gun safety instructor and he commented on the great design of the mossberg safeties.....this might be reason enough to get a mossberg. A pump action also adds an extra measure of safety because you have to cycle the pump......no just forgetting to put the safety back on leading to an accident.

On the Benellis.....they have a propriatary stock/recoil pad design which is supposed to reduce recoil. My first gun was a 12 guage and I didn't realize how hard it kicked relative to other guns and until I had already developed a bad flinch that I continue to fight. So I agree with your concerns about recoil.

[Flatcoat1]

I agree with thinking of safety first. I would say a single shot is the safest, then the pump and finally the autoloader. My wife shoots an 870 Youth 20ga. (To tell the truth, when she isn't around I may take it out for rabbits. Lighter and a little more fun to carry.)

Does anyone know if Remmington makes a cantilevered scope mount on a rifled barrel for the 20 ga. youth?

Flatcoat

[Mark]

I just went through this with my kids. I started with a Remington 870 Youth in 20 ga. It was reasonably priced, and completely dependable. The problem I ran into was recoil. Because of the short 21 inch barrel, the recoil was fierce. My son got to the point he didn't want to go shooting because he kept getting beat up.
I just couldn't understand this. Here I had bought the correct size shotgun, in 20 ga., and my son couldn't stand the recoil of this little gun. I decided to shoot it myself, to see exactly what he was experiencing. With 7/8 oz. skeet loads I found the recoil to be unpleasant. I urge anyone out there who is contemplating a gun for their kids, to shoot it themselves.
We waited another year, and got him started on a 12 ga. Life is good now.
With my daughter, I didn't make this mistake. We started with a .410 shooting 2-1/2 inch shells. No problems, other than our percentage of hits wasn't where it was a real positive experience. When my son started giving my daughter the beans about her score, I simply had him shoot a round with the .410. Needless to say, suddenly my daughter understood what I had been talking about with 1/2 oz. loads vs. 1-1/8 oz. loads. My son stopped giving the beans also.
It's been a tough experience. If I had it to do over, without any doubt I'd go with the .410. Of course, it's nice to see kids hit targets, and it's difficult with a .410, but when they're getting beat up the fun just isn't there for them.
Good luck with this.
Mark

[Todd G.]

Youth guns, what a fun subject.

Here are my thoughts, first off, stay away from single shots. They simply cause more pain from recoil than any other gun out there. And, too many of them come with exposed hammers which are about as unsafe for small hands as any safety mechanism you can find.

Pump action guns are good. However, make sure they really fit the child so the recoil isn't severe. Try several brands, since they seem to vary with make. I purchased my nephew a 16 gauge Remington 870. It fit him very well, and he simply loves it. Another nice benefit is the ability to change the stock when the child grows. Something that doesn't work for most single shots.

Semi-auto guns can be a great idea. They will reduce recoil, generally fit better, and will give you more options down the road than a single shot since the stock can be switched out when the child grows. They are also better suited for the shooting games. So, shooting skeet, sporting clays, etc. can be more fun and will help motivate the child to the shooting sports. And, after shooting a round of clays, his/her shoulder won't be all beat up.

With any repeater, the issue of having multiple shots comes up as it relates to safety. Well, here's my take; if the child is hunting/shooting, I assume you will be supervising. So, only give one shell at a time if this is an issue.

As for what gauge to get, I will state very strongly to stay away from a .410. Even in the hands of an accomplished shooter, they are difficult to hit your target. And, the killing power is greatly reduced. You will also find that most of the animals you wish to pursue are not allowed to be hunted with a .410. Also, ammo is costly.

I would strongly look at getting a 20 gauge. This will give you the ability to use light loads and heavy loads. The ammo is inexpensive, and you can get non-toxic shot as well as slugs. So, the 20 gauge fits all of the animals you wish to pursue. You may wish to get a 12 gauge if the child is more developed and you are considering an auto. Otherwise, stay with the 20 gauge.

I do not have personal experience with the Charles Daly. It sounds like a good option if you can get a rifled barrel and can get an adult sized stock down the road. Otherwise, I would strongly consider a Remington 870, 1100, or Beretta 391.

[bearbacker]

I've been active with scouts for a number of years, and so have a bit of experience here. What seems to me to work best in an affordable gun is either a youth model pump, such as the Remington 870, or a gas semiauto such as the Remington 1187. I really like the semiauto because the recoil isn't a jolt, but rather a push. That really takes the sharp edge off of recoil discomfort. As suggested in an earlier post, we control the ammo very tightly, handing the young shooter one shell at a time. This procedure makes any repeater as safe as a single shot. If you choose to hunt this way, though, may I suggest both of you use the same gauge gun? Call me overly cautious, but it's just too easy to get the ammo mixed if you carry two gauges at the same time. Load one of his 20 gauge shells in your 12 gauge gun, then a 12 gauge shell behind it, and it's major bad juju. Guaranteed to ruin your whole day.

I have learned with my over/unders that stock fit makes an incredible difference in felt recoil. Unfortunately, with a growing youngster, the stock fit seems to change almost daily! A longer length of pull often seems to reduce felt recoil for me. I'm guessing that it's for two reasons: Most stocks increase the comb drop as you move from the comb to the heel of the butt, and the way stocks are tapered means the longer the length of pull, the larger the surface area of the pad. For me, the lower comb means I'm not crowding down so hard on the comb of the stock with my cheekbone to sight down the barrel, and it reduces the sensation of being kicked in the face. What I'm getting to is the youngster may do better with an adult length of pull.

As an illustration of this, the last time our troop went to the range, it was at a public range and so we were not restricted to guns issued at the scout range. I started some of the younger (smaller) boys with a Savage 940Y (youth model) single shot 20 ga. It's the gun I learned to shoot with and seemed perfect for the job at hand. One small scout was having trouble hitting with it and asked if he could shoot a 20 ga. O/U B. C. Miroku Charles Daly that I had brought for the older boys to shoot. Although it has the plastic buttplate and "seemed" too big for him, I granted his request. He broke the next 3 birds! And it was amazing how those three powdered clay pigeons erased the recoil memory!

[camoNick]

I am 13 years old and have a small frame 5 foor 85 pounds. I bought a 870 youth 20 ga 6 months ago.Two weeks ago I won a charles daly 3.5 inch mag capable of 2 3/4 3 1/2. I have only shot 2 3/4 out of it. but plan on shooting a 3 1/2 later this spring. But concearning your son I dont think a 20 ga kicks bad at all a has your son ever shot any other guns like a 243 of hirgher, most importantly is a good youth stock, I have to reach for the trigger on my 12 ga wich is really uncomratable. In my opinion I would look at a pump unless your son is worried about recoil and has a tendancy to flinch, then let him hold a semi auto get him confedent and let him loose.

[huntinguy7]

get your son a winchester model 1500 pump shotgun. i started my son off my son with this gun and its accurate and powerful. if he is worried about kick start him off with a single shot .410 even though it single shot the kick isnt bad. but the problem is with 410 the bullets cost more than 20 gauge. which is kind of suprising.

[ICU/CCU]

I just went through this with my daughter and she choose the mossberg 500 bantum in 20 gauge. With repsect to her I allowed her to choose the gun she felt fit her the best out of a sleceltion I had previously looked at.

Those who recommend single shot shotguns in youth versions have not fired one lately. Before we started I went to my fathers and loaded a standard phesant load in the 20 gauge NEF youth my siblings and I had learned with. It was BRUTAL!! I remeber why I didn't shoot much till late in high school when I bought and 870 12 gauge. The single shot kicked me harder than my 10 gauge BPS pump does. If your lucky they will weigh 5 lbs.


As for safety, Mossberg supplies a plug than will turn the gun into a single shot if you wish or can be cut later for more shells. I don not know if Remingotn does this with the 870 youth. As others have said another plus is that you can refit with a longer stock as they grow older. The mossberg comes with a discount coupon to order a butt stock from the company.

I bought one of those pachmayer slip ons to lengthen pull and have been using it lately for a late season rabbit gun; it is a dream to carry.

One thing I would do is to make sure that your youth shotgun is fitted with an excellent recoil pad. I fitted hers with a SIMS lab pad that is light years ahead of the stock pad from mossberg.

[SingleShot721]

Don't get a simiauto or a pump. get him a single shot. This will 1.Be more safe 2. Teach him to shoot a gun that kicks ( my 20 ga. h&r youth model kicks like a 12 ga) and 3. teach him to shoot every shot like it is his only shot.

[Kato_Guy]

just don't do anything like this!!

http://www.break.com/index/little_dove_hunter.html

[MOhunter]

hNr nef exposed hammer .410 full choke. with ammo carrier on the stock

bismuth .410 loads for waterfowl and slug if the .410 is legal in your area.