Which caliber is better for me? 300WSM or 30-06

[lindstd]

I was looking at the 300WSM in a Kimber classic select or a Sako 85, but I really like the Coopers and the best option for me would be the 30-06. I wish Coopers made bigger calibers but they don't. So my question is I have a Swarvoski scope, 3x10x42 and I hope to research the best ammo and practice a ton. The reason is I want to be able to go out West and have the ability to shoot up to 400-500yds. I know that is very far for a standard rifle but if a person became profecient at shooting that far do you think a 30-06 would be big enough to kill anything large ie-Bear, Moose, and Elk at that distance if needed? Or would I be better off with the Kimber or Sako in a 300WSM. I know they are both great rifles but I really like the Cooopers? Any advice would be much appreciated.

[Whit]

I would want something bigger then 300 wsm for hunting bear at 500 yards....but thats just my thoughts...;) I would say No to the 30-06 at that far for the really big game.

[tjen]

My question is why do you think you need to shoot 400-500 yards? Just hunt more and get closer and at less than 400yrds the 30-06 is all you will ever need for deer/lk/moose/grizzly.

Just my 2 cents hunting isn't purchasing an dead game animal is getting to hunt it and the chance to get one. In short if a guide leans toward his climent shooting at 300-400-500 yards instead of 100-300yards its a red warning flag he is lazy and is going to blam you for not taking or making 500 yards shots instead of just doing his job the best he can. No hunt is guarentied if so its not a hunt.

[lindstd]

So are you saying I would be ok at anything less than 400yds to kill anything in the US if I practice and practice and have good optics and ammo with the 30-06? I don't know if I would ever even need to shoot something that far but I thought I would practice in case that ever happened if I am out West. I have never gone so I am talking out of my rear because I really don't know. I have only heard that in some cases you only have that opportunity to shoot that far but again I really don't konw. If anyone can share any insight I would appreciate it. It sounds like you think I would be ok with anything less than 400yds or at least I think that is what you are saying? Thanks

[mstarbird2000]

My prefernce would be for the .30-06. If a mag is a must I would look at the full sized .300 win or the .300 wby. Unless big bears are on the menu then a .338 Win.

[Whit]

if were going to be hunting bear as a primary game that i hunted i would be getting a 338 win and then anything eles you want to shoot is fair game....but if you are just wanting a gun for deer and then the once a year trip west to shoot real far at elk or moose i would say get what you want the most and im sure 30-06 would be fine but for bear i still would want to know that i have something with lots of watage in the cottage lol

[ARduxnbux]

I'm a .300 WSM fan, but there is a limit to its effectiveness with just about anything you can load beyond 180-grains for it. IMHO, the problem lies within how much a longer bullet cuts into the powder capacity of the case. Within 300 yards, you won't notice much of a difference, but beyond that point it starts to rear its ugly head.

The .30-06 will probably be a better all-around selection, but it has its own share of limitations, too.

Either one will be a good selection, but each one has its own downside. That much is true for every chambered round you can name.

[Vaultman]

I live "Out West" and "Up North" as many people put it.

The longest shot I have taken on a deer is 45 yards. Seriously... that is it.

I have taken two shots on Elk and the first was about 50 yards (Eastern Oregon), and this year was a 65 yard shot (in Eastern Washington).

When people say "Out West" that does not always mean long range shots. It depends on where out west. I know a lot of Montana and Wyoming are very open and long shots are probable. But if you are literally as far west as the Cascades, you are going to be in a lot of timber...

All that said I shoot a 300 wm, for elk. Not necessarily for "Long Range" but mostly for flat trajectory, and a 308 cal. 270 for deer.

[C. Schutte]

There is nothing that a 300 short mag can do that a 30-06 can't. Sure, you will push the 180 grain bullets a little faster but the effectiveness on big game will be the same. Any of these magnums, (the 300 wby included) has limitations and a shot at a big game animal like an elk at 500 yards has plenty of risks involved no matter the rifle used. The only real difference between the 300 mags and a 30-06 is their ability to push the 200 and 220 grain bullets. You mentioned wanting the short mag and it along with the 06 does not have this advantage with the heavy bullets.

My thinking about elk is that you want a rifle to be able to take both shoulders out or have enough penatration to make a quartering shot up to 300 yards. After that distance the only shot I would want to take would be a double lung shot mostly because at that yardage you need the largest target area you can get. You have to remember that far is far and even if you had a super magnum that was pushing a 180 grain bullet 2000 fps. @ 500 yards can you hold steady enough to make a quartering shot at that range? Remember that when shooting at game we are in the field and not at the range. For me even a big old elk looks rather small at over 400 yards. I would want the biggest target area possible and that is the broadside double lung shot. The 30-06 is able to knock a hole in those lungs at 500 yards so really it has all the power that I can use if shooting 180 grain bullets.

I don't know about shooting grizzly bears as I have never done it but, I would think twice before shooting one at 500 yards for the reason that I might wound it. I can't imagine that I would enjoy crawling around in thick cover looking for a wounded grizzly. Beowulf has done this and while he vividly remembers every detail, I would think he would not want to repeat it.

Another consideration is the Barns X tripple shock for elk. They do a far better job of penatration so your effective range is extended. I took my 1st elk with those bullets at 436 yards. The 1st shot was broadside through both lungs because I wanted the largest target area possible. I did take a follow up shot to anchor him because he was close to a canyon so my next shot was through both his shoulders. It was also a complete pass through and I would not be surprised if a 30-06 would have been able to do the same thing using the Barns X bullet. Something to think about. Good luck..........chs

[citori]

The opportunity to "shoot far" out west is not what is often portrayed, I have shot very few antelope beyond 250 yards and they are found in more open country than elk. The elk I have taken or have witenessed taken have also been much closer with ranges under 200 yards being by far the majority of shots taken. Pressured animals are seldom found far out into the open so the odds of needing to reach way out there are slim.
Same for moose, they may be seen at long distances feeding in shallow water but that is one place you do not want to drop one. Once they reach land the range drops tremendously as the visibility decreases. Bears are another matter, the grizzlies and such are dangerous enough that one does not want to wound one therefore close range shots are preferred. The interior grizzlies are probably taken at the greatest range and even then I have heard of few being shot much beyond 200 yards and again, most are taken much closer. Black bears can be taken at ongish ranges in some places, I have seen accounts of shots at over 200 yards in some western states where one hunts them via "spot and stalk" methods on rather open mountainsides. Even then one can often work their way fairly close if one wishes. In Minnesota you are unlikely to see a bear much over 50 yards during the season let alone get off a shot. It does occur on occasion but it is not frequent.
So, I suggest getting the Cooper in 30/06 as that seems to be the gun you want. The cartridge is capable of doing what you want at any reasonable range and the pride of ownership will make you feel better owning it and hopefully cause you to shoot it more. The reasonable cost of ammo is a key factor as one cannot shoot well at distance without making the necessary commitment to practice. This takes more than a box or two a year and the cost of 30/06 ammo will allow for nearly triple the trigger time of 300 WSM ammo if you don't reload. Also, at the closer ranges I feel the higher velocity rounds require much heavier constructed bullets to attain the same results as slower ones which again cost more, even if you reload. I buy 100 Remington Core-Lokt bullets for less than 50 Nosler Partitions which agin allows for even more shooting.

[mstarbird2000]

The only thing I want to add to Citori's post for moose is that it depends on the area you hunt them.

Here in Maine where I hunt Moose there are found usually in big clear cuts feeding on the new growth. Some of these cut can be very large. Large enough that with a 10x scope I couldn't tell a bull from a 800lb cow standing side by side. This cuts can be several 100's of yards long and wide. Most of the time unless they are crossing from one cut to another I tend to find them way at the back of the cut. This leaves a very long shot at times. Depending on how old the cut it you may not get to sneak up for a closer shot. I agree with Citori that you don't want to drop a Moose in the water. That makes for a rough day!!!

So you really need to think about what where and how you will hunt these bigger animals like Moose and Elk. Personally I have taked a few moose. None closer than 250 yards. When you get a 30 second window to shoot a 1200 LB moose you got to trust you have the equipment to do the job or pass on the shot. There is not enough time to jump in the truck and drive down there.

That said in the past decade my farther and I have taken 5-6 Moose (Maine makes you take 2 years off after your pull a tag). He's got 70 yard shots I have not been so lucky. All this said if you can keep to 300 yards or less a 30-.06 with a good 180 grain bullet will havest moose just fine. I would recomend to keep shooting untill it drops though. I bought a .300 win mag because At 350 yards I was not liking the performance I was getting out of the .30-06. I feel for an animal that big more is needed. After 500 I would bother, even with a super mag.

[ROM]

To answer the question I would say this. If its your first rifle perhaps an 3006 would be better due to reduced recoil. If you are not reloading AND money is an issue a 3006 could be a better choice. I own a 300 wsm and used to have a 308. The difference is huge in terms of trajectory. AND you would be better off shooting a high quality 180 grain from a 300 than a 220 from a 3006 all other things being equal in my humble view.

There are also scientific benefits to a short mag also that don't alway boil down in real world application. As my shooting improved I was glad to have a 300 to reach out and touch stuff beyond 300. yes a 3006 would probably kill it beyon 300 is where the mags come in to their own if feel.

Of course the most popular sniper rifle is a 308.

r

[sputter]

Your first objective and responsibility is to be able to harvest quickly and humanely. So, you must be willing and able to practice. If costs are prohibitive, than your confidence and distance should be less than 200 yards IMO. If you are able to practice, then at distance foot pounds of knock down power are necessary. This will put the thump in your shoulder from a 180 grain or larger projectile. I have a 300wsm, and practice quite a bit with it. I would not hunt big bears at 500 yards; there are many things wrong with this. The -06 is lacking in knock down past 400 yards, even at mountain elevations where air density helps out. But dead is dead. If tracking, or falling off a cliff with its last staggering steps is an issue, either don't take the shot, or be confident with a bigger bang. My 300wsm with 180 grain reloads would be enough for a 500 yard shot on an elk, - if I had to! I have not had to. A .338 will have a greater impact on the target and your shoulder. But, we are still talking about ability of shot placement. IMHO I would pick the 300 wsm or win mag over the 06, because of the finishing kick it can have at greater distance with standard 180 grain load comparisons.

[Agunner]

I look at this another way. If you can do the 500 yard thing... great. thats another issue.
In this world of uncertain future (gun and ammo wise) I would not stry far from what I know I will be able to get ... even if every component were banned taxed, restricted, ect. That makes the .30-06 far and away the more atractive. The last 2 types of ammo on the planet will probably be .22lr and .30-06

[Shooting Fan]

linstad--

I hunted in Montana in the area north of Yellowstone Park. I mainly used a .270 Win. My hunting was for antelope, mule deer, and elk. The distance of my shots varied, but I always tried to get as close as I could.

I hope I am not being unfair, but I have a fear you may be too guided by some of the bull in the hunting magazines where the writers -- in recent years. anyway -- so often boast about the distance of their shots. Often it seems they will claim shots of upwards of 400 yds. In a few cases they may be sure of their facts, but given some of the other self-glorifying nonsense some of them write, Lord knows what the actual range may have been. The guide is being well paid by the writer -- he certainly won't challenge the claim when the mag hits the newsstands.

This is fairly new, I think. Old "classic" shooting editors like Jack O'Connor or Warren Page would sometimes make long shots, of course, but it was not a boasting sort of thing. They would probably have preferred to close the range to be more sure of a humane kill.

As with Citori, my longest shots were on antelope. After shooting one particular antelope, I paced off the distance twice and came up with 280 yds. -- perhaps my longest shot ever on an antelope. Bear in mind that the biggest antelope are only about 125 lb. animals, if that, and look very small in a scope at that distance.

Furthermore, if you don't measure the distance in some objective way like pacing it off or using a rangefinder, it is so easy in the excitement of the hunt to make wild guesses as to the range. Hunters, like fishermen, always love to tell a good story, and the range may get longer with each telling.

Here's a test for you. Try this. If you live in a city and can take some long walks, notice the stop signs on corners down the street. If unobstructed, you can probably see a stop sign two blocks away. It starts looking pretty small, doesn't it? Now if you can even see a stop sign FOUR BLOCKS AWAY, that is 400 yds.

Now that stop sign four blocks away -- small as it is -- will be double or triple the area of the kill zone on an antelope.

Enjoy your western hunting. Hope you get out there before too long--

[C. Schutte]

linstad--

I hunted in Montana in the area north of Yellowstone Park. I mainly used a .270 Win. My hunting was for antelope, mule deer, and elk. The distance of my shots varied, but I always tried to get as close as I could.

I hope I am not being unfair, but I have a fear you may be too guided by some of the bull in the hunting magazines where the writers -- in recent years. anyway -- so often boast about the distance of their shots. Often it seems they will claim shots of upwards of 400 yds. In a few cases they may be sure of their facts, but given some of the other self-glorifying nonsense some of them write, Lord knows what the actual range may have been. The guide is being well paid by the writer -- he certainly won't challenge the claim when the mag hits the newsstands.

This is fairly new, I think. Old "classic" shooting editors like Jack O'Connor or Warren Page would sometimes make long shots, of course, but it was not a boasting sort of thing. They would probably have preferred to close the range to be more sure of a humane kill.

As with Citori, my longest shots were on antelope. After shooting one particular antelope, I paced off the distance twice and came up with 280 yds. -- perhaps my longest shot ever on an antelope. Bear in mind that the biggest antelope are only about 125 lb. animals, if that, and look very small in a scope at that distance.

Furthermore, if you don't measure the distance in some objective way like pacing it off or using a rangefinder, it is so easy in the excitement of the hunt to make wild guesses as to the range. Hunters, like fishermen, always love to tell a good story, and the range may get longer with each telling.

Here's a test for you. Try this. If you live in a city and can take some long walks, notice the stop signs on corners down the street. If unobstructed, you can probably see a stop sign two blocks away. It starts looking pretty small, doesn't it? Now if you can even see a stop sign FOUR BLOCKS AWAY, that is 400 yds.

Now that stop sign four blocks away -- small as it is -- will be double or triple the area of the kill zone on an antelope.

Enjoy your western hunting. Hope you get out there before too long--





Shooting fan,

All true. I'm going to take a different stance for the sake of argument only. Maybe I can't speak for linstad but for myself when I was in the market for a elk rifle I wanted to make sure that I had something that could make that 500 yard shot just in case I ever found myself wanting to make it. If you are going to make an investment in a rifle, especially a Cooper, you want to be able to make all the possible shots and not limit yourself unnecessarily.

In my case I settled on the 300 win mag because it will make every shot that I ever saw myself making and it had the ability to handle 200 grain bullets. In truth I own an old Mauser in 30-06 that I took out before the hunt and fired it for the 1st time. Because it had a shot out barrel I decided to get something new ( and better). If that rifle was accurate I would have used it instead.

Having made a shot on an elk at over 400 yards I could see myself doing it at 500 if all the conditions that I need are present. One of those being the animal standing broadside. The 30-06 can make that shot if you place the bullet in the boiler room.

Linstad has a real dilema on his hands. He really wants a 300 magnum and a Cooper rifle. Can't have both. (or can you?) Good luck with this one Linny......................chs

P.S. Cooper might come out with a new cartridge next year. My bet is if they do it would be the 300 win mag. Go get yourself that 399 Weatherby in 300 wby with the synthetic stock and you will have your foul weather, crawling on the ground after antelope rifle. Get the Cooper when they chamber it in what you want. Who said you can't have your cake and eat it too!

[rooster52]

Go for the 30-06. Learn the rifle well,learn the cartridge well,and practice all you can. The 06' will do anything that needs done if you do your part.

[lindstd]

Well thank you all and in particular C Shutte for going above and beyond on this issue. I called Cooper directly and they do have plans on expanding their calibers but he thinks it would be in a smaller area which I was surprised. I assumed they would have put the effort forward to introduce some form of the 300 or 7mm. I personally think they are losing out on a lot of business but who am I to say. In regard to my dilemma, yes I do have some. I am very stressed because I am probably only going to be able to buy one of these. I have been saving for many birthdays and x-mas $ for this gun. I am in the process of buying a Swarovski scope as well so I will be spending some money there as well, so I guess it has turned into a big investment and I dont want to make a bad one. I think the 30-06 will suffice and I got an e-mail from Cooper to tell me that I can shoot the Light Magnums from their guns so I am happy to get some extra energy there for "knock down" power. I was originally was told that is not recommended but it appears to be ok. I typically will only shot less than 250yds but as C. Shutte mentioned that I want the ability to get out to 400-500yds if ever needed. I will have the right optics and hopefully the right ammo and I will need to practice a ton but I guess I want that ability. But in the same time I don't want to wound an animal either. It would be much easier if anyone knew for sure if Cooper will be coming out with a bigger caliber sooner than later. Thanks again, and any extra advice would be helpful.

[all_about _the_chase]

When I am practicing long shots I use a caldwell deer target (cabelas sells them) or you can get a similar looking target at walmart. Many guys think they are cheezy but if you want a true picture of what it is like to take a long shot at a deer they are a good measure of your ability. Try one of these at 500 yards from a few field positions. You will get an idea of what it takes to make consistent shots on a deer at this range. I have taken a few guys out who laughed at these targets, they now realize that thier abilities limit them to 250 yards or less from field positions and unknown wind conditions.

At longer ranges you need to make your own bullet drop charts as the one on the box of ammuntion or from a reloading manual likely will not match what your rifle and conditions will produce. You basically make a map of the bullets path at known distances, and have the chart available when you are in the field. At ranges over 250yards or so the wind becomes more of an issue, so knowing how much correction for the wind is required. A good rangefinder is needed for long shots. I am not trying to discourage taking long range shots, but there is alot of skill required. Long shots can be taken and can be as ethical as a 50 yard shot, if you can figure out the variables for the shot, have the skill to make the shot and know that sometimes the shot cannot be taken. This takes alot of practice. It is something I hope to master one day.

If your two options are a 30-06 or a 300wsm, I say go for the Cooper. The difference between the 30-06 and the 300wsm is not really that great, and if it is the Cooper rifle you want go for it.

[147mulie]

As someone that has hunted big game for 30+ years, I find it absolutely amazing that someone would be inexperienced enough to be asking "what's the right caliber for me" and then talk about using this caliber to take shots at big game 400 to 500 yards away. I find it equally amazing that other hunters/sportsmen would be seriously discussing this.

Taking the real world issues into account for shots of this distance, the shooter needs to be expert enough to judge: wind direction, distance, elevation, angle to the target, to name a few. With the exception of shooters that have gone through military or police sniper schools, probably none of us can make these judgements to ethically take shots of that distance.

In a world of anti-hunters, the ethics of sport hunting needs to be above reproach. Taking 400 to 500 yard shots at big game under real hunting conditions is a guarentee to wound an animal that you may not be able to follow up on and quickly dispach.

[C. Schutte]

As someone that has hunted big game for 30+ years, I find it absolutely amazing that someone would be inexperienced enough to be asking "what's the right caliber for me" and then talk about using this caliber to take shots at big game 400 to 500 yards away. I find it equally amazing that other hunters/sportsmen would be seriously discussing this.

Taking the real world issues into account for shots of this distance, the shooter needs to be expert enough to judge: wind direction, distance, elevation, angle to the target, to name a few. With the exception of shooters that have gone through military or police sniper schools, probably none of us can make these judgements to ethically take shots of that distance.

In a world of anti-hunters, the ethics of sport hunting needs to be above reproach. Taking 400 to 500 yard shots at big game under real hunting conditions is a guarentee to wound an animal that you may not be able to follow up on and quickly dispach.




You might just be amazed mulie. We "discuss" long shots all the time here. Stick around, you might learn something................chs

[147mulie]

Discussing 400 and 500 yard shots at big game and ethically making them are two different things.

You migh be a great shot but a lousy hunter

[C. Schutte]

Discussing 400 and 500 yard shots at big game and ethically making them are two different things.

You migh be a great shot but a lousy hunter




You know absolutely nothing about me mulie and yet you make a grand appearance and start telling the whole forum how amazed you are that we are discussing long shots on game. Please forgive us for not consulting you prior. "I might be a great shot but a lousy hunter" You know, I might be one or the other but the deal is you don't know. Let me ask you something, what is it that you do know? chs

[lindstd]

I actually find it amazing when people in life think they know everything and are not man enough to Man Up when they don't know something. I can assure you that I am very confident when it comes to Duck, Pheasant, Goose, Deer, and Rabbitt hunting. To be honest probably more confident than you. I have a lot of knowledge with shotguns, pistols but I am pefectly ok with myself to know what my limitations are. And with that being said I know I have never shot over 250 yrds and I know I have never gone out West to hunt anything bigger than a Whitetail deer. Further, I believe there are a lot of people on here that are very confident with their personal knowledge so that I why I am here. I know for a fact that there are a lot of people on here that are very profecient at shooting at 400-500yds. I have never meet that guy but he post a lot here, 30 HART. If you are that strong with your opinions I would highly encourage you to talk to him. He appears to be an excellent marksman. I hope I am not offending you, and I apologize if I have. I guess I can honestly say that you have offended me and probably several others. I thougt I was doing my homework with finding good optics, good ammo and hopefully the best gun and a lot of practice. I felt strongly that I was doing the "right thing" but in your opinion you are surprised that we are discussing this issue. I used to know people like you. We used to hunt with this guy who was my Dad's nieces husband. Nice guy, but very opinionated. Felt like he was a great hunter becaus he always told us how good he was. After wounding his 3rd deer and always getting into debates that sometimes were very heated with everyone in our hunting shack we had to ask him to leave. Life is too short to be friends with peole who can't see other peoples sides. Too bad for him, he is a cop in a small town and has been with his 2nd hunting party now if 5 years. I guess what I am rambling about is I know that these shots can be done with adequate practice, and as I mentioned in sevaral of my posts I dont want to wound anything because that is not true sportsmanship. As I said practice, good ammo, and great optics can go a long way, or at least that is what I have heard on this forum from a lot of very nice people.

[lindstd]

I forgot to post that I have won my trap club 6 of the last 9 years in shooting for the end of the year rankings. This is roughly based on around 40-55 people. I guess I am being a smart a-- but I am frustrated with 147 mile. I am not trying to be a jerk but prove a point. And that is I am a better than average clay shooter but I don't have any experience with my long distance shooting. Thanks C Shutte for speaking up. Much appreciated.

[147mulie]

As discussed in this thread, taking a 500 yard shot at a moose or a bear is doing little more than taking a potshot.

You're pointing the rifle in the direction of the animal, pulling the trigger, and hoping like heck you hit something....

[C. Schutte]

You're pointing the rifle in the direction of the animal, pulling the trigger, and hoping like heck you hit something....




147,

Not necessarily, it is my opinion that you can take an ethical shot on an elk if you know what you are doing and whatever conditions that you need to make that shot are present. The hunter still has to make the final decision. As far as I am concerned any shot whether it be 100 or 500 yds. has to have the necessary conditions prior to releasing the bullet on it's path. In my experience I have made very few long distance shots on game. The reasons for that is simple, I have only found myself in a very few instances where the long shot was warranted and I knew that I would make it. Many are the shots that I have passed up, long and short, due to varing conditions in the field. I was raised by a family of hunters where it was instilled in me that to miss was embarrasing and to wound was shameful. Making any shot on game should only be done if you know that you will make it, not should make it.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about shooting at 500 yards just for the sake of seeing if you can do it. If that is the case then you are right. That however, is not what has been discussed on this thread. The thread starter was only inquiring as to what caliber would be effective at those ranges. In that perspective we can discuss effective range all day long. Making the decision to shoot is up to the hunter.

There are those on this forum that have more than enough skill to make long shots on game. Knowing their abilities any shot they make even at 600 yards involves less risk than the average hunter or shooter making shots at 250 yards. It is all about knowing your equipment, abilities and limits. A good hunter in my opinion stays within his self-imposed limits due to his respect for the animal. That is how I handle myself when hunting; safty for the other hunters 1st, the animal 2nd and any goals for myself 3rd. You might think that I am a lousy hunter but, the way I see it is I owe it to the game to be proficient enough to quickly dispatch and experienced enough to know my limits.

chs

[riorod]

2 cents worth here:
"I wish Coopers made bigger calibers" You have already answered your question.
You want the 300wsm. If you don't buy that, you will always kick yourself mentally till you do.
In my observations I have seen too many instances where someone settled for less than they wanted. I think you also mentioned that this might be your only rifle /scope purchase .
The other posters have mentioned limitations for the rifles & individual.
Its like dirty Harry said " mans got to know his limitations"
Good luck
Rod

[ct1]

+1 on getting what you want.

Both the 30.06 and 300WSM will handle nearly any game you want to hunt. If you want the 300 get it. The ammo is not that much more unless you use many boxes per year. If you only occassionally go to the range and hunt with it 2 boxes a year will be lots. Zero it for 200 yards and you can pretty much point and fire out to 300 yards before it drops alot more.

Just my 2 cents. I bought a 300WSM, my first bolt action rifle. The short action and quickness of reloading sold me on it over some long action rifles I had tried of my friends'.

Live without regrets that knaw at you if you can.

[all_about _the_chase]

First - This was a discussion on what caliber and rifle to choose, and if it was 400-500 yard capable...not a lecture on ethics from someone. Start a thread on ethics if you so wish.

Second - If you don't know your abilities then maybe you shouldn't be hunting at all. Three shots a year on a piece of paper does not mean you can handle your firearm. I have had several elk within 25 yards that had no ethical shot, and passed on. To question someone's hunting ability because they are discussing 400 - 500 yard shots is very narrow minded.

Some of us spend thousands a year on shooting, not just one box in a year...I fired 70 rounds at 500 - 700 yards from my 300rum last weekend, along with a few boxes from my 300wsm and 325wsm. If you consider groups (5 shots) fired prone on a bipod or my hunting pack, consitently under 3 inches at 500yards to be unethical to shoot an elk, then 70% of the hunters at the local ranges here should not be shooting game at 100 yards from a cement bench. The groups at 700 were 4 1/2 - 5 inches in case you are interested. I do a shoot like that at least once a month, and do a range session at least every second weekend. Have I had formal military or LE sniper training, no, but I have taught myself thru experimentation and research what it takes. Would I shoot at game at 500 plus? No, I limit myself to about 500 yards, in perfect conditions. 99% of the game I have shot was at less than 200 yards, and likely 90% at under 100 yards.

To un-highjack this thread - if the rifle is more important to you go for the Cooper. If caliber is more important look into a 300wsm.

[.30 HART]

As discussed in this thread, taking a 500 yard shot at a moose or a bear is doing little more than taking a potshot.

You're pointing the rifle in the direction of the animal, pulling the trigger, and hoping like heck you hit something....

Show me a moose or bear at 4-500 yds and ill show you a dead animal.....period
I practice at these distances regularly and much further typically......several on here have shot with me and have seen first hand what a quality high powered rifle is capable of in the hands of someone willing to get proficient with it.
Also 147 there are a lot of knowledgeable guys on here that will be glad to discuss many subjects with you but not if you are going to come out of the gates criticizing others on here you dont even know.
On the subject of rifles and calibers for long range hunting the 300 WM is hard to beat....run a quality 180 gr bullet out of it and you have an efficient killer out to and beyond the distances you are discussing here. Just remember practice is key...........

[Athabasca]

Show me a moose or bear at 4-500 yds and ill show you a dead animal.....period


Tsk Tsk Grasshopper.

[rooster52]

Our local range is limited to 300 yards,not sure how I would do at 400 -500 yards ,but I would like to try some day and see how me and my load does.I did take an antelope at 360 yards measured by a range finder,that was probably my longest shot on an animal.That was with a 243.
I do most of my hunting big game with my 30-06,it does anything I need to do.

[C. Schutte]

Our local range is limited to 300 yards,not sure how I would do at 400 -500 yards ,but I would like to try some day and see how me and my load does.I did take an antelope at 360 yards measured by a range finder,that was probably my longest shot on an animal.That was with a 243.
I do most of my hunting big game with my 30-06,it does anything I need to do.




Taking an antelope at 320 yards is pretty good shooting especially in light of the wind and mirage.

[beretzs]

lindstd for your purposes a 30/06 would work fine with the right load out of your Cooper. With a good scope with aiming points and practice, I would vote on you to kill elk on the far out shots. It is not rocket science to shoot that far. Get the rifle and practice with it. The 30/06 is excellent, the 300 Win Mag is a little more of better, but both are good out to that range if shots are selected with the higher chance of success. The great bullets we have today can make most average hunting cartridges effective farther than most of us have business shooting at. Scotty

[beretzs]

Yeah, the Nikon's, Leupolds, Burris's will do the job. Just using the right tool for the job. Scotty

[beretzs]

Hard to beat a Leupold. Probably the best scope for the money. I have others, but Leupolds are what I measure them all by. Scotty

[lindstd]

Thanks everyone for the great input. I have been impressed with many of you who have been very helpful with my decision process. I don't even know any of you and everyone has gone out of their way to post helpful information This forum has been referred to many people from me. I understnad everyone has an opinion in regard to this issue but I am blown away with the opinion I was receiving from gun store to gun store. I learned more here through you all in the past week in comparison to to my own work going into these stores. In regard to my gun purcahsse I am leaning towards the Cooper 30-06. I will let you all know after I get the opportuntiy to shoot gun. Now my only obstacle is to sell my wife on this?

[C. Schutte]

Thanks everyone for the great input. I have been impressed with many of you who have been very helpful with my decision process. I don't even know any of you and everyone has gone out of their way to post helpful information This forum has been referred to many people from me. I understnad everyone has an opinion in regard to this issue but I am blown away with the opinion I was receiving from gun store to gun store. I learned more here through you all in the past week in comparison to to my own work going into these stores. In regard to my gun purcahsse I am leaning towards the Cooper 30-06. I will let you all know after I get the opportuntiy to shoot gun. Now my only obstacle is to sell my wife on this?




Sometimes it is easier to get forgiveness than permission. I don't know what a Cooper costs but, what little I know of them they have an eye for detail, a thing for accuracy and are about the best looking rifles out there. Quality does not come cheap and there is just no subsitiute for it. A rifle like that will retain it's value which warrants getting it alone. It will last your life time, provide you with countless memories, pride of ownership, absolute confidence when shooting and can be passed down to your children. If considering this then it is worth every penny. Go get that rifle, put your Swarovski on it, go forth and enjoy. chs

[j270wsm]

I mentioned this in another post a while ago

Cooper rifles are made by a couple of former Kimber employees. So other than stock, and action designs the quality of the rifles are probably pretty similar. IMO you cant go wrong with either. It just depends how much you want to spend. I purchased a Kimber 8400 classic select in 270wsm. In calgary Alberta that rifle cost me $1349.99. I dont know how much it is down there, or how much the coopers are in either country. When picking up my rifle a guy next to me was looking at a HS precision rifle in 300win. and it was $3400. It was a beautiful rifle, it was around 4lbs(I think) way too light for my liking, it would probably kick like a mule.

you will be happy with what ever you buy, and if not you can always sell it. You might be out a couple hundred, but in the end you will have what you wanted.

[all_about _the_chase]

I have one of those HS rifles, I have a prohunter lite, there are pics in one of the threads on here. It's light (5.75 pounds bare, 6.8 pounds with sling and scope). Mine is a 325wsm. Even with the light wieght it doesn't kick that bad, the stock is very straight and pushes straight back with no muzzle rise. I was out today with my hunting partner (bear seaon you know) and it kicks slightly more than his vanguard in 7mm mag. The kick is definitely faster, but the push is about the same.

The Cooper is a very fine rifle as are the Kimbers. Kimber seems to have a hit and miss rep with the quality, but I think it gets blown out of proportion on net chat rooms, every manufacturer has problems, it's how you handle them that counts.

I wish you luck on convincing you significant other... sometimes beggin for forgivness works...sometimes the forgivness costs as much as the toy...Flowers and a new ring got me off the hook on my last big purchase.

[Harry B.]

Sir;
Quit fooling around with the "short magnums" and just get an 06 - nothing better!
Harry B.

[j270wsm]

Harry B.

My father has a ruger m77 in 06. they are a great caliber but I prefer something with little flatter trajectory. If you go to the ballistic comparison chart on the remington site you will see that the 270wsm shooting a 150 with a high BC is neck and neck with the 300win and 300wsm that are shooting a 180. The velocities and the energy are very close even out to 500 yds. IMO why shoot more gun than you need. The only time I feel that you need more is when hunting dangerous game in africa.

[beretzs]

I am with you, I have a Model 70, 270WSM, and it hits very hard, recoil is very decent, and the rifle shoots laser flat. I have a load with a 130gr HDY Interbond at about the max load, and man it shoots very tight. It is my go to rifle for the whatever kind of hunting. It is kind of the 30-06 of my gun cabinet. I know the short mags take a beating sometimes, but the 270WSM is a step above the regular 270 Win, and runs right with the 7mm Rem Mag and the 300 Win Mag as far as trajectory and usable energy. Scotty

[Hunter]

If you go to the ballistic comparison chart on the remington site you will see that the 270wsm shooting a 150 with a high BC is neck and neck with the 300win and 300wsm that are shooting a 180.

I am with you, ... the 270WSM ... runs right with the 7mm Rem Mag and the 300 Win Mag as far as trajectory and usable energy. Scotty

Remington apparently can't bring themselves to load the 300 Win to its potential. The 300 Win will shoot a 180 as fast as a 150 from a 270WSM. The short/fats are a good second choice in the horsepower department.

[wasgas]

I have shot elk 3 elk with my 30-06 from 110 yards up to 326 yards with no problems with 180gr bullets, all have been leathal shots wiht no tracking required, however it seems a little inadequate for larger bears or even long shots at elk. I would not reccomend the 30-06 for any large game over 300 yards. I have also dropped elk with a .270win at 300 yards with a lung shot, and believe the biggest concern is shot placement, all but one of those shots could have been done with a .243. The last one was a shoulder shot at 326 yards, which I had guessed was 250 yards and shot a little low breaking both leg bones and having the animal trot and stumble 150 yards, still having to follow up with a pistol shot to the lungs after it went down, that is where I decided that more power and flatter bullets were needed.

When hunting in the western areas it can be hard to accurately jugde distance and you should have a large flat shooting rifle for ethical hunting. I always like to go for a lung/heart shot which does not require a big punch, but large expansion, however in rough terrain or when hunting dangerous game you may need a shoulder shot to drop them instantly and that s where the need for the larger magnum rifles comes in.

I have recently purchased two 325wsm rifles and plan to use them for elk, moose, and coastal bears as it packs a big punch, shoots very flat, and has a tollerable recoil. As my kids have started hunting I have developed a need for shorter lighter rifles and that is why I picked the 325, I have the Browning BLR and the X-bolt both with 23" barrels the x-bolt weighs under 7lbs and my 91lb 13yr old has no problem shooting them, these rifles have nearly 4000 ft-lbs of energy and will carry it to 500 yards with over 1900 ft-lbs of energy.

[oldpilot]

I also have the BLR in .325(22") and find it a very handy length and weight(under 7 lbs). I'd have to figure it the most powerful production lever rifle (not why I bought it) But, it's still handy enough to enjoy carrying for deer. I think it's about as good as it gets for a combination elk/deer hunt, or similar.

[700xcr]

Remington apparently can't bring themselves to load the 300 Win to its potential. The 300 Win will shoot a 180 as fast as a 150 from a 270WSM. The short/fats are a good second choice in the horsepower department.Take a look at Federal site.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=759
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=759

Here is Winchester site.http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/comparerifle.aspx?symbol=SXP270S&atype=1&ctype=1&action=1

[rooster52]

The cost of ammunition alone would determine what rifle cal. I would buy today.
I own both a 30-06 and a 300 WSM and have had a 300 Win. Mag. In actual hunting sitiuations ,I think there is not much difference. 200 fps is nothing when talking arround 3000 fps ,when it comes to killing an animal.
I may sell my 300 WSM this fall and stay with the 30-06.

[Shaggy]

Lindstd I have shot yotes @ 350 +/- yrds on a few occasions. And deer close to 410 according to my range finder. All this was done with a 30-06. I also think that its better than a 300 wsm or wm because ammo is easier to find, cheeper and less recoil. The last point equates into you being able to practice more if you want to actually hunt @ 300 to 500 yards. The more you do the better you become, but if your rifle kicks like a mule then you'll probably range it in and shelve it till hunting season. IMHO