Shoulder or Head/Neck Shots on Deer?

[Tequila Jake]

I've always read and been told that the best place to shoot a deer is right behind the shoulder to get into the heart/lung area. However, I shot one whitetail doe there and she ran at least 60 yards before dropping. I shot a fallow doe last Sunday and the shot went through the lungs and out the other side of the deer. She hobbled down off the little hill she was standing on, then down a draw about 150 yards from me. By the time I got to her she was giving up the ghost, but she had lived for a minute or two. Many other people have told me about shooting a deer through the heart and/or lungs and having it run 100 yards.

So, I'm thinking about shooting through the shoulder blade from now on. I use a 7mm-08 with 140 gr Rem PSPCLs and that ought to break through the shoulder and go into the vitals and maybe stop a deer from running so far, if at all. I know that will ruin more meat, but I'd rather do that than have to trail a deer 100 yards through the brush, especially when it's getting dark.

Another choice might be an accurate, light-recoiling round like the .243 and taking only upper neck or head shots.

Recommendations?

Tequila Jake

[RJM158]

First, welcome to the forum, Jake. Glad to have you.

There is no way to predict how a deer will react when you shoot one. There are so many factors that will influence the deer's response that no one caliber/bullet is guaranteed to ALWAYS drop them in their tracks. I personally have the most faith in the heart/lung shots since my preferred caliber (25-06) gives me great results with them.

You will find posts on here from hunters using a variety of weaponry, some with better results than others. Everbody has preferences that work for them, and we can agree or disagree as ladies and gentlemen while having a civil discussion.

My personal suggestion is to find the best, most accurate load for your rifle and use it to make the best shots you can on game. In my opinion that's the best we can do, for the game's sake and ours. Do some searching of prior posts and you'll likely find some that may help answer some of your questions.

Good Luck!

Ron

[Arnie Oakley]

I personally dislike it when guys talk about head shots. I've seen two guys take head shots and the shots were disastrous. I'd much rather go for the vitals and do the tracking. Just my opinion.

Gary

[gdbraham]

Jake

The biggest reason for the heart shot, besides the obvious, is the fact that you are aiming at the largest vital part of a deer body. Although some deer may run and others will fall, the fact of the matter is, if you hit a deer in the boiler room, you guarantee yourself a dead deer. The neck and head shot greatly limit your vital aiming point, and is a shot that I would not recommend. I consider myself a good, not great shot, as I practice alot, and am fully confident with my abilities out to 300 yards and yet I still do not like to take a head or neck shot. Now don't get me wrong, if done correctly, the results are phenominal, but I still go by the old addage, "Aim Small, Miss Small". I do not see the reason to aim for a kill zone a fraction the size of the heart lung shot, and both will result in the same outcome. The shot of choice for me in the high shoulder shot. If you look at the anatomy of a deer, the high shoulder shot, directly enters the central nervous system of a deer and the main artery feeding the brain. So, not only does it cripple the deer ability to move by incapacitating both front legs, the deer bleeds out incredibly fast resulting in a shot/flop situation.

[lanman89]

Tequila Jake, this is personally a perplexing question for me. I'll give my examples real quick.

05' Shot a big bodied buck, 50cal muzzle loader, thru the heart. Ran 100 yards decent blood trail.

07 bigger bodied buck, 7RM ballistic tip center of the shoulder. Dropped dead, three men could not find a bullet hole. NO blood.

08 .50 cal thru the center of one shoulder, exit 4" behind other. minimal blood hard tracking approx 100 yards.

08 again. 25-06 thru the heart. ran 60 yards. ZERO Blood...

My hunting buddy convinced me to start shooting the shoulder in 07. I've done it twice with clean kills, but minimal blood. The first was the 7mag and it did not pass thru.
The second a .50 and the blood trailing was tough.

SO, I switched back to the traditional boiler room. Monday night I had to get a dog to find my buck. Even when we rolled him over, there was NO blood. His chest cavity was full, but it never exited and it was a low cavity shot! The shot was a pass thru!

I have since gone to a more heavily constructed bullet and plan to go back to the shoulder shot. I prefer a pass thru, and I like to take out the running gear. Pass thru's NORMALLY tend to bleed more and broken shoulders are hard to travel with.

I think my next opportunity I will try what GDBraham stated. I have always centered up the shoulder. Maybe I need to get a tad higher.

It seems that the results are never the same twice. Trying a head/neck shot though... You have reduced your kill zone and chosen the most mobile target on an already elusive quarry. I always try to do my part to reduce the margin for area.

It is my belief that the ballistic tip style of bullets work well for boiler room placement, normally passing thru and creating a good channel for blood. For a shoulder shot to pass thru, you probably need a more solid round. NO shot is perfect everytime. Your experience will dictate a level of comfort you will go forward with in the future. Pick one and use it, if the results are less than favorable.. Try the other.

Good luck, you should get some interesting responses. We all have opinions, and you know what they say about them!

Dan

[mstarbird2000]

There is no way to predict how a deer will react when you shoot one. There are so many factors that will influence the deer's response that no one caliber/bullet is guaranteed to ALWAYS drop them in their tracks. I personally have the most faith in the heart/lung shots since my preferred caliber (25-06) gives me great results with them.

Ron

I agree. I have seen deer do some mind boggling things that defy logic. No one shot placement is going to 100% in bringing game down on the 1st shot right in its tracks. I have seen little deer go for almost a mile with 7 round in and just behind the front shoulder. I seen deer give up and wait to die because some poor shot was taken and hit them just above the foot. I had a cousin that shot a moose in the head and did a lot of damage. Animal should have died instantly. It ran 1/4 of a mile. Firearms used for these shots .30-06, 12. ga with slugs, and a Rem 7mm mag.

After that trigger is pulled its up to the animal to decide how things are going to go down. Ive got animals with shoulder shots and lost animals with front shoulder shots same with neck shots got one, lost one. I hate losing an animal. Spent hours looking/ days looking for them. (I say but that also include my hunting parteners becuase I consider us a team - and a whole unit --- sucsess or failuse are a group effort --- I track more deer for other people than I shoot almost 4:1)

Whats the best shot placement?
Not sure. Its something you need to figure out for you self. No matter where you aim a fluke can always happen. You just need to do every thing you can to make sure it doesn't. Use a good round at a good distance (for you). If you cant for some reason risk letting an animal run after its been shot ---- don't take the shot.

[JimT]

Boiler room only for me....

[3 1/2" magnum]

I'm not a rifle guy, Only allowed to use shotguns and muzzle loaders on Ohio,
I have had great results from my 12 ga hitting the boiler room, Deer don't go far.
As for a rifle, and the result of many saying no blood trails, If I where using a rifle
I think I would get use a hollow point bullet for better results,
Just my 2 cents

[mstarbird2000]

I'm not a rifle guy, Only allowed to use shotguns and muzzle loaders on Ohio,
I have had great results from my 12 ga hitting the boiler room, Deer don't go far.
As for a rifle, and the result of many saying no blood trails, If I where using a rifle
I think I would get use a hollow point bullet for better results,
Just my 2 cents

I have always had really good like with ballistic tips. If you look at a cros section of the bullet its pretty much the best of both worlds.

For my 12 ga. nothing better than a hollow point slug.

[C. Schutte]

I've always read and been told that the best place to shoot a deer is right behind the shoulder to get into the heart/lung area.

Another choice might be an accurate, light-recoiling round like the .243 and taking only upper neck or head shots.

Recommendations?

Tequila Jake




Hello Tequila,

You are correct, the best place to shoot in order to get to the heart/lung area is right behind the shoulder. However, you can expect any animal to run with this shot. My brother who is big on reading all kinds of research has told me of a study where that shot results in an approximate 80% chance of the deer running 100 yards or more while a double shoulder shot results in an approximate 85% chance the deer runs less than 15 yards.

In my experience I have found this to be true. Only one of mine shot in the heart did not run and only one shot thuough the shoulders ran more two steps, ( that one only made three steps). Each of my neck/spine shots has resulted in a deer flipped on his back and down for good. There is a reason for this and that is that once you have taken out the heart/lungs the deer is in instant panic and will run until the brain shuts off. Without shoulders he has to do it with his hind legs and without a spine he has zero ability to move at all. The only exception to this is when I use my 300 Wby. with the 180 grain Interlocks. They expand so well and pass through that a heart shot means instant death due to the 6" hole on the opposite side. The choice every hunter has to make is to decide what is the best availible shot .

About head shots. I won't make them because there is too much chance that you take the jaw or nose thereby putting that poor creature in pain and suffering. One place that I hunt has a mandatory rule where all doe are to be taken in the head because their reasoning is that the result is a clean hit or miss. I disagree because some of those "clean" misses are jaw shots where the doe runs off and you just think you missed. On that place I will shoot a doe just behind the ear. It is close enough to the head that no one will fuss at me.

[barco]

Through the shoulder...
It lands secondary in the heart lung. Deer can't run because your broke their leg. They sophicate and bleed out on the ground in less than a minute where you shot them. If they are prone away, you have to shoot for the opposite shoulder. The deer are rarely exactly prone so you usually you can plan a shot through a shoulder and through the vitals.

I have killed deer in the head and neck where there was no other choice but they can move their neck in the flicker of an eye. It is a lot riskyier shot. If they are facing you, you don't have a lot of choice....its that shot or wait. Few can wait. If you hit them good though its over and not a lot of ruined meat.

[muleeatingrits21]

Unlike some others, here in SC i don't have the luxury of getting a completly clear shot everytime. I hunt some pretty thick stuff. Last animal taken I watched as she walked by the stand got about 20 yards away from me and left me a turned head and hind quarter shot. Didn't want to shoot the hams so I took the largest part of the neck. .270 silvertip ballistic 130 grain As you prob already know take the best shot that the animal gives you. Their survival instinct is going to tell them to run. If I was walking along and heard something loud, smelt smoke, and something stung me like that, I would run as far as my body would let me. My little bit change for conversation sake.

[Shooting Fan]

We shot a few deer with Nosler Partition bullets in a .243.

Using this bullet, you can shoot a deer right through the boiler room, and it is not unusual they will take off and run 80 feet or more. Then they hesitate, then they drop.

The exit hole on the far side of the deer with a Partition is comparatively small, maybe not more than a quarter in size.

You don't get the shock like if a lighter bullet blew up in the chest cavity.

Yet I still think they are the best bet in the caliber. I will not waste a lot of electrons here telling of my experiences -- but I still prefer Partitions in this caliber.

[Rich M]

I have 2 options for firepower - 30-06 and .243. I love the .243 since it has no recoil and is relatively quiet.

With the .243 I will not shoot the shoulder as the bullet is light at 100 gr. I will shoot head, neck, boiler room, spine.

With the 30-06 you will have a hard time getting me to NOT shoot the shoulder. Of course if I can't see the shoulder, I'll shoot it somewhere else...

It's a decision to be made in the field and it is nice to have many options based on our hunting areas, different caliber guns, and our shooting capabilities. Never take a shot you are not 100% certain you can make.

[barco]

See this image.
http://www.ivwebsites.com/scripts/ivstock/pic.asp?id=1820-052

and this one.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/520/deer_skeleton.jpg
Through the shoulder, also goes through the spine and brachial-plexus. If its low, it goes through the lungs and boiler room as well.

[dk88]

I hunt in michigan in shotgun and muzzleloader zone and I usally shoot does in the neck mainly becase if you hit them they drop on the spot and with a slug aiming for the neck it is almost impossible to wound one by hitting its neck. When im shooting bucks I generally aim for the boiler room unless I have a fairly close shot and the deer is close to the property line then I will take it in the front shoulder so it doesnt run on the neighbors land once hit. But deer are amazing sometimes a few years ago I shot a buck at 50 yards through one shoulder and took out both lungs and it still ran 300 plus yards, and then I shot a doe at 350 yards last night through the boiler room last night and it dropped on the spot. I would highly advise not head shooting, I have heard to many storys on hitting the the jaw or hitting the deer to high and it runs for miles and dies a slow painfull death. In my opinion if you are worried about tracking aim for the front shoulder if you are using a big enough gun other wise aim for the boiler room and track it there will usually be a pretty nice blood trail.

[BIG Matt]

if you are worried about them running try the high shoulder shot this shot will either cut the spine or shock it enough to drop them in there tracks and they will expire right there.

if you are worried about messing up meat stay behind the shoulder in the lung area, yes they will run but not to far the caliber is excellent and you ahould have no problem trailing.

if you dont want them to run and save your meat also, shoot for the head this is a instant kill, just know your limitations and shooting capabilities because there is little margine for error.

[jackG]

I just got back from MT. I filled several tags. The first one was a shot across a small coulee, with a range of perhaps 250 yards. Someone in the group took a shot at a small bunch of animals and one ran a little way along the ridge my way and stopped. It was facing away at perhaps a 45 degree angle and facing up the slope. I knew it was getting ready to go, so from a seated postion on a down slope, I rested my elbow on my knee and took a shot at boiler room. I was an obvious hit. The animal spun to the right and took off. It made it perhaps 40 yards across the hillside, slowed down, and then ran out of gas. I gathered up my stuff, made a note where it should be and went after it.

The opposite hillside was steeper than it looked. I climbed up to the spot and found the deer, having run through a little patch of snow, collapsed and slid into the trunks of some head high ash scrub. The entry and exit wounds appeared about the same size, which is weird. The shot hit just ahead of the ribs on the left side, took the heart out and exited just behind the opposite side shoulder. The wounds were about 2" in diameter. The blood trail leading to the collapse could have been followed by a blind person. It was as if a garden hose had put it there.

I was using a 270 WSM, with Fed 130 gr TSX. The amazing thing was the animal's ability to make tracks after that sort of hit. I did not have an opportunity to try a shoulder shot, but sooner or later I'm going to. A fellow hunter over the years has gravitated to that location. His dictum is, "shoot at the bony part of the shoulder, trying to pass through the heart. You break the shoulders and disrupt the spinal cord. Down they go."

The second one I shot at about 150 yards, ran even further. When I field dressed it, the aorta had been severed. I'm going for the shoulder next time.

[oldpilot]

You've had a lot of good answers. I'll add my 2 cents worth as well. I've shot deer with over 15 different calibers. No matter what people say, I'm convinced that the best shot wins, and the best bet is a good sized caliber. Many sing the praises of the .243, and obviously it does the job, when conditions are right. Given a less than optimum angle and large (230-300Lb live weight) I'd prefer something bigger.

I'd rather shoot a deer in the shoulder/neck with a .308/.270/25-06 than in the lungs with a .458 mag. I'd like the ability to drive a bullet from the mid-rib region out through the offside shoulder with ANY caliber on a 250lb deer. My shot of choice is the point of the shoulder/base of the neck. This is normally a bang/flop shot with most adequate deer rifles.

If it matters (likely not!), in my opinion the best deer caliber ever, is the .35 Whelen. Hit them anywhere close to THE spot, and NO tracking will be required. Before some say this is way too heavy a caliber, let me remind you, it's simply a 30/06 necked up. I've owned three, still own two, and it recoils like a 30/06 shooting 180s, when you are shooting a .358(.35 Whelen) caliber 200gr bullet. I M H O
If you try it, you'll NEVER ask that question again.

[oneshot 1]

Well I've shot hundreds of Deer and I use to shoot Head/Neck but quit after I shot one in the Jaw,did get it but it could have been worse.I've shot two Deer this season through the Heart,both went about 60 yards.

I shot a Boar with 3 inch Cutters at about 80 yards with 50Cal. Muzzleloader in the Lungs,it ran for me.Well I can't run,so yes I was Praying,he dropped at my feet.Talking about making Life interesting.

oneshot

[BoHogGrind]

I've found that if you can get a broedside shot.Try to shoot just below the top of the shoulder.A bundle of nerves and some large vains run through this spot.Hit high,you get a spine shot,low,you get a heart,right,double lung,left base of neck.

[texasokie]

I personally am in it for the meat, so the heart lung shot is about the only one I will take, unless I have no other choice, ie. the deer is already wounded and is not allowing any other shot (have shot in the head for this). I probably have missed taking a few deer because I dont like neck or head shots. I have a lot of guys tell me to shoot them in the white spot under their jaw if they are facing you. I just cant make myself do it. I will continue to wait and try to get a broadside heart lung shot, if not there is always tomorrow. And, who wouldnt want to go hunting one more day this season?

[DblLung]

I think the DblLung shot is the best for recovery of the animal and meat salvage. I did however take this years buck with a shot I usually dont take the Neck shot. It tas a strong quartering to me shot with the buck looking the other way maximizing the sweet spot plus he was only 240yds away and I had a great rest. 7mm-08 139 SST's in the neck dropped him on the spot. The Bullet was also recovered just under the skin on the off side. wt 76.8 grs fantastic mushroom. It went though a lot of neck due to the turn and shot angle. Diameter of recovered bullet 14.8 mm just over 2x original. Deer 225 dressed. Back non-forked tine 12 1/4 inches. Good mass but not really huge but worththy of shooting.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/drbigfish1/2008riflebuck.jpg

[yoteslayer]

Jake

The biggest reason for the heart shot, besides the obvious, is the fact that you are aiming at the largest vital part of a deer body. Although some deer may run and others will fall, the fact of the matter is, if you hit a deer in the boiler room, you guarantee yourself a dead deer. The neck and head shot greatly limit your vital aiming point, and is a shot that I would not recommend. I consider myself a good, not great shot, as I practice alot, and am fully confident with my abilities out to 300 yards and yet I still do not like to take a head or neck shot. Now don't get me wrong, if done correctly, the results are phenominal, but I still go by the old addage, "Aim Small, Miss Small". I do not see the reason to aim for a kill zone a fraction the size of the heart lung shot, and both will result in the same outcome. The shot of choice for me in the high shoulder shot. If you look at the anatomy of a deer, the high shoulder shot, directly enters the central nervous system of a deer and the main artery feeding the brain. So, not only does it cripple the deer ability to move by incapacitating both front legs, the deer bleeds out incredibly fast resulting in a shot/flop situation.

what does aim small miss small mean ive never understood it

[Flintlock1776]

NO and I don't want anyone in my camp who would do that

[salasj]

I never liked a head shot. Because if your going to mount it, taxidermist beter be good. I have done neck shots only because that is all that presented. I always go for a heart lung shot.

[birdhunter1]

I prefer under ideal conditions a head shot, you get the stop, drop and flop effect.

But on most shots I will go for a heart lung shot.

[yarnfly5]

I personally am in it for the meat, so the heart lung shot is about the only one I will take, unless I have no other choice, ie. the deer is already wounded and is not allowing any other shot (have shot in the head for this). I probably have missed taking a few deer because I dont like neck or head shots. I have a lot of guys tell me to shoot them in the white spot under their jaw if they are facing you. I just cant make myself do it. I will continue to wait and try to get a broadside heart lung shot, if not there is always tomorrow. And, who wouldnt want to go hunting one more day this season?


I like your philosphy texas. I try not to use "it was the only shot I had" reasoning. If I don't get the shot I want, I get to hunt tomorrow. It's a win/win situation. As for head shots, I do not like them. Tracked a doe with her jaw blown off. Enough for me. I did take a neck shot this year. All of 14 yards away.

[all_about _the_chase]

I've tried the head shot, I removed most of the deer's face forward of the eye's, and it ran all over the place (likely blind) untill I finally got a finisher in him. I have used the neck shot but I try and keep the range short. I usually try and tuck one in the boiler room as tight behind the shoulder as possible, although I have also tried the point of the shoulder shot (with a 223 wssm and 53 grain tsx's) and the flop was pretty much instant. I say go for the high percentage shot at anything other than very close range.

After see'n more than a few deer shot in the boiler room I have one piece of advice, ignor the leg/shoulder positioning and try and estimate where the heart would sit, and aim at that point. A slightly quartering towards angle will cause a shot behind the shoulder to hit the rear portion of the lungs and will take longer for the deer to expire.

[bearbacker]

what does aim small miss small mean ive never understood it

The magnitude of a miss is often related to the size of the target. The idea is if you aim at a small target such as an organ in an animal, a "miss" is still likely to be effective. If you shoot "into the brown" on an animal, you're not being very careful to place the bullet precisely. Consequently, a hit is likely to go most anywhere covered by hair. A miss may go over the back, under the belly, into the guts, etc.

In 1776 (movie) Mel Gibson's character reminds his sons to "aim small, miss small" when shooting at British soldiers. He meant that if you snap a shot at a silhouette, a miss means a clean miss. If you aim at a button on the coat, however, a "miss" of the button still takes out something vital. Even if the button is missed, the shot may be effective.

It's just a reminder to be more precise in aiming to place the bullet where you want it to go.

[boondocker]

The lungs/heart shot will for sure kill them but as was stated before they are going to run. I hunt in northern Minnesota and the terrain is a lot of swamp and a few islands. The deer are always a few sedonds from getting into the water. I would rather not track them in the water. So I began shooting them in the scapula about 10 years ago. (Referred to in earlier posts as High shoulder) Every one has simply crumbled on the spot.
There is little if any meat ruined as there is little meat there. This is about a 4 inch target so it's a shot I used when I have a rest to use for the shot. Mostly stand hunting so this is usually not a problem.
Would think any legal big game rifle could take out both bones if a quality bullet is used in the lighter calibers. I use 30/06 usually with core lokt but this year used nosler ballistic tips.

[ArchersHaven]

I wouldn't suggest shooting a deer through the shoulder with any bullet that is semi or hollow point. All the bullet is going to do is explode and not penetrate through the shoulder. I've seen it happen several times by skinning the deer down and even seen a bullet hit the shoulder and traveled down the leg not penitrating. This happened to people I know shooting 30-06, 12 gauge slugs, and even a 50 caliber muzzleloader. My opinion is shooting a deer behind the shoulder or try to take both lungs out. Also, it depends on the deer if it's spooked or not on how far it's going to run after shooting it or if the deer is facing downhill or not. If the deer is facing downhill even with a heart shot, it could run 100 yards in a few seconds on adrenaline eventhough the deer is dead running on hoof. On head and neck shooting, you got to make sure your gun is very accurate. If you shoot for the neck and don't hit the bone to drop the deer on the spot or hit the main artery, the deer can run a good distance and you will probably have a lot of trouble following blood because it will bleed all internal. A head shot is ok because either you're getting the deer or missing the deer completely but just remember, a deers head is always moving and you stand a good chance of missing. Hope this helps, with the experiences I haved over 20 plus years hunting.

[Cam]

You need a quick expanding bullet on whitetail lung shots that will open and destroy thinternals...Why not try these|Federal Premium|Fusions..Sierra Game King or a ballistic tip..They are in the mid $20's for price..The first two worked great for us...I will say this,a whitetail is very high strung and does not always give up the ghost as quickly as other animals including elk..If one is heart shot they will generally go a ways on a dead run before piling up,strange but true..The mentioned bullets may not exit but I guarantee the deer will be dead...My wife shot one at 60 yds.this year that went 250 with a perfect lung shot(hayfield).The reason,some left over partitions that went right through wihtout good expansion..This is not an ideal deer bullet.

[blkdia]

A lot of folks do not like the head shot, personally, it is my favorite. You have to know your abilities, always! Every deer I shoot head shots on are from a steady rest, and within my range for such a shot. I've not ever wounded a deer, nor missed, when taking this shot. There have been days when I refused to take a head shot, for whatever reason, I just know when I can pull it off and when I can't. The high shoulder shot will always put them down, if properly executed. Neck shots are one I rarely take, only from behind, or directly facing to. Good shooters always miss up and down, just like in basketball. The truely good shots rarely miss left and right. From straight away or straight towards, a neck shot gives a large target, again, you have to know your abilities. I never take these shots without a solid rest. For most I'd go with the behind the shoulder shot, and I use it often.

Denny

[all_about _the_chase]

I am more of a boiler room / high shoulder shooter myself...but...

http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww98/LongBomber/deaddeer.jpg

It's hard to argue with a hole like that...

[Lodiman]

It looks like you upset him and he lost his head. LOL

[crcejka]

I always go for the heart. I shoot a 300 win. mag. and I like to use winchester supreme elite ammunition. The past 3 years and 3 deer have dropped in the spot they were hit and when gutting the deer the lungs come out in pieces and the the heart is badly dammaged. with a wound dammage like that no animal will be able to move much.

[EcoRover]

Lung shot unless head/neck is all you can see & there's a good rest. Hate shooting the heart as it's might tasty pickled.

[Skydiver]

If you take out the lungs, the deer is going to die-PERIOD!

I normally hunt in Michigan where you have a month of bow season after the firearm season. Every year I see deer still alive with their jaw and tongue hanging below their head starving because someone was a little off target. Not quite as often I have seen deer with a gapping hole in the brisket where someone has shot in front of the shoulder and missed the vitals altogether. The heart and lung area leaves more room for shooter error where as if you shoot for the head, as little as an inch can be the difference in dropping the deer or it suffering until it starves to death.

[miolover]

Last Nov. I shot a nice sized buck of at least a goodsolid 6 pt. 45yds. in the shoulder using a 30-06 with a 180 gr. winchester silver ballistic tip deer dropped in it's tracks legs straight up in the air I watched him with the scope for a minute or so and he never moved I waited another 3 minutes and got out of my blind just as I was picturind him on my wall he jumped up and was gone no blood or hair. I could not believe my eyes.I told the guys back at camp and they thought I was making the story up.They teased me that maybe the buck had fainted like one of those fainting goats I looked for any sign of him for about 6 hrs. nothing can anybody give me any insight on what might of happened?

[C. Schutte]

Last Nov. I shot a nice sized buck of at least a goodsolid 6 pt. 45yds. in the shoulder using a 30-06 with a 180 gr. winchester silver ballistic tip deer dropped in it's tracks legs straight up in the air I watched him with the scope for a minute or so and he never moved I waited another 3 minutes and got out of my blind just as I was picturind him on my wall he jumped up and was gone no blood or hair. I could not believe my eyes.I told the guys back at camp and they thought I was making the story up.They teased me that maybe the buck had fainted like one of those fainting goats I looked for any sign of him for about 6 hrs. nothing can anybody give me any insight on what might of happened?



That buck saw too many episodes of "Get Smart", or the bullet exploded inside his shoulder which stunned his nervous system. Without an exit wound all bleeding was internal. I had a mule deer do something similar where I hit him behind his right shoulder on a quartering away shot. The 180 grain core-lokt flipped him over and he laid on his back with his head and feet twitching. After a few minutes I noticed that he started to regain some mobility because he was moving while still on his back like a horse does to scratch his back. After 10 minutes he jumped up and started to run. He did not look good but he ran.

I was ready for this and as soon as he started to run I put another through his lungs which ended the ordeal. Just curious, how many deer have you taken with those 180 silver ballistic tips and what kind of shot did you take. Have you shot a deer throught the shoulders with one before? Give as much detail as possible. Thanks..................chs

[blkdia]

Last Nov. I shot a nice sized buck of at least a goodsolid 6 pt. 45yds. in the shoulder using a 30-06 with a 180 gr. winchester silver ballistic tip deer dropped in it's tracks legs straight up in the air I watched him with the scope for a minute or so and he never moved I waited another 3 minutes and got out of my blind just as I was picturind him on my wall he jumped up and was gone no blood or hair. I could not believe my eyes.I told the guys back at camp and they thought I was making the story up.They teased me that maybe the buck had fainted like one of those fainting goats I looked for any sign of him for about 6 hrs. nothing can anybody give me any insight on what might of happened?

I believe you was a little off of aim, hitting close to the spine, reeking temporary havic on the deers' nervous system. I've seen it before, this is how people get hurt with bears and other animals, always approach from behind and be ready to follow up! Good luck and have a great night.

Denny

[jackG]

I have been deer hunting only three years. However, I get five tags each year, so it has been pretty educational relative to the short amout of time. I hunt with several others who are stocked up on tags as well. So, I have gotten to see quite a few deer taken.

I'm with you on the head shots. The only one I've seen was a disaster. I read somewhere later that the head is the part of a deer that moves the most. They're always looking around. It's not a good target. However, my brother went out with two other hunters in eastern MT this winter and participated in a depredation hunt. He used a .223, all head shots, and popped them off the hay stacks they were raiding. He was using 55 grain Varmint Grenades and did so to great effect. I still won't do it.

All my shots have been heart/lung. They included two pronghorn. They go a little after the hit, 20 yards or so seems about right. They run out of gas, stand, and tip over. One heart shot deer hopped its hind legs up, and appeared to charge down the bank toward the Yellowstone. The apparent charge was nosing in. It didn't go 10 feet. This last year, all five heart/lung shots went 40-50 yards. And in two cases the heart was literally destroyed. They can run even then. One went screaming across a hillside as if untouched, then slowed, stumbled and piled up. I hiked over and climbed the hillside, and the left over snow was spattered with what appeared to be pink cook aid. The trail was about 10' wide and was spread from the point of the hit to the place it piled up. It looked it ran until it all simply drained out.

I've not tried the shoulder thing, but after crawling into a coolie, and then dragging the critter back up out of there, I'm ready to give it a try. I confess that instinctively, I go heart/lung, and trying to go for a shoulder shot will require a conscious effort.

[Oldtrader3]

I have shot most of my deer, ranging from 150 pound Texas Whitetail to 280 pound Wyoming Mule deer, with either a .270 Winchester or 7mm Rem Mag. With both calibers I was using Nosler Partition bullets driven at about 3000 FPS muzzle velocity. A high lung shot will normally lay deer in their tracks very quickly. Occasionally I have had a deer stagger forward for 15-20 yards before expiring. If you use a performance bullet, shoot well, plus destroying the lungs and aorta, or spine if your shot is high, deer don't normally go far.

I do not normally take head or neck shots unless I am within 30-40 yards of the deer and a neck shot is all that I have. I have killed three deer with head and neck shots but don't usually shoot deer anywhere but in the lungs/heart area if I have a choice.

[miolover]

That buck saw too many episodes of "Get Smart", or the bullet exploded inside his shoulder which stunned his nervous system. Without an exit wound all bleeding was internal. I had a mule deer do something similar where I hit him behind his right shoulder on a quartering away shot. The 180 grain core-lokt flipped him over and he laid on his back with his head and feet twitching. After a few minutes I noticed that he started to regain some mobility because he was moving while still on his back like a horse does to scratch his back. After 10 minutes he jumped up and started to run. He did not look good but he ran.

I was ready for this and as soon as he started to run I put another through his lungs which ended the ordeal. Just curious, how many deer have you taken with those 180 silver ballistic tips and what kind of shot did you take. Have you shot a deer throught the shoulders with one before? Give as much detail as possible. Thanks..................chs

That morning I shot a doe about the same distance in the shoulder she dropped where i hit her a little high in the shoulder. the round passed all the way thru about a baseball size hole on the exiting side. There was no blood at all with her chunks of bone but no blood. The buck was the second deer I shot just switched round this past summer. 2 days after the "get smart" buck I shot about a 7 inch spike at about 35 yds. aimed same spot dropped it in its tracks it started to kick a little so I hit it again in the chest. It really does have me baffled.

[tjen]

I olny take the same shot to the center of the vitals as I would with a bow & arrow it has the most amount of leway if the animal moves unexpectedly or if your shots off a bit. For me its an ethical thing with stacking the odds in my favor to make a single leathal shot, and not wound the game because the shot was just 2" off.

[mstarbird2000]

That buck saw too many episodes of "Get Smart", or the bullet exploded inside his shoulder which stunned his nervous system. Without an exit wound all bleeding was internal. I had a mule deer do something similar where I hit him behind his right shoulder on a quartering away shot. The 180 grain core-lokt flipped him over and he laid on his back with his head and feet twitching. After a few minutes I noticed that he started to regain some mobility because he was moving while still on his back like a horse does to scratch his back. After 10 minutes he jumped up and started to run. He did not look good but he ran.

I was ready for this and as soon as he started to run I put another through his lungs which ended the ordeal. Just curious, how many deer have you taken with those 180 silver ballistic tips and what kind of shot did you take. Have you shot a deer throught the shoulders with one before? Give as much detail as possible. Thanks..................chs

I have only shoot one Deer with Win ballistic silver tips. It was a neck shot with a .30-06. It was maybe 10 feet away. It was a 168 grain round. It shatter the deers neck it 3 places. Yop just under the jaw where it went in. Mid way down, then about 2 " up from the check before exiting just infront of the right sholder. It was looking right at me.


The regular Win silver tips have been bad for deer, great for moose. to much pass through on deer, no real mushrooming up (180 grains all any of my hunting party and I tried).

[blkdia]

I'd say at least 50% of the deer I shoot are head shots, never seen one go more than 30" south. I view deer as roast with legs, don't get nervous when I shoot and always from a rest. No rest, no head shot. I do applaud those of you that do not take this shot. If I was shooting turkeys with a rifle, I'd have to take a body shot, I am not calm when hunting them! I imagine many guys get like that with deer! Have a great day!

Denny

[j270wsm]

2 years ago i shot a two deer, both were 4x4's the white tail was at 240yds and the mulie was at 160yds both were neck shots, only because that was all i had to aim at. they both died instantly. even though those two shot were'nt my first neck shots, i dont plan to make any more. they are just too risky, if you have your rifle canted just a little you can be 1-2 inches off at 100yds. I once shot a white tail doe in the head, she was looking at me when i shot and all it amounted to was watching a deer missing a jaw run away and stop about 100yds later only to be shot again. I shoot 130TSX handloads from my 270win, the bullet is more than capable of the task, last year it penetrated 3/4 the length of a bull elk at 300yds. but i still think that head neck shots are too risky.

[blkdia]

2 years ago i shot a two deer, both were 4x4's the white tail was at 240yds and the mulie was at 160yds both were neck shots, only because that was all i had to aim at. they both died instantly. even though those two shot were'nt my first neck shots, i dont plan to make any more. they are just too risky, if you have your rifle canted just a little you can be 1-2 inches off at 100yds. I once shot a white tail doe in the head, she was looking at me when i shot and all it amounted to was watching a deer missing a jaw run away and stop about 100yds later only to be shot again. I shoot 130TSX handloads from my 270win, the bullet is more than capable of the task, last year it penetrated 3/4 the length of a bull elk at 300yds. but i still think that head neck shots are too risky.

I will definitely agree, long shots and head shots are bordering unethical, almost all of my head shot deer are under 100 yards, should have mentioned that earlier.

[GameEarGabe]

A man once told me "Aim Small, Miss Small" Put it behind the shoulder.

[blkdia]

A man once told me "Aim Small, Miss Small" Put it behind the shoulder.

Hey Gabe, I think we know the same guy, I thought he meant behind the ear! lol

[Cam]

I have shot a fair amount of deer and the only ones I have lost were with core-loks and Partitions..The core-loks worked great on moose and grizzly(went through both shoulders and out)30/06...Others may have different experiences but these are mine...Whitetails are very high strung...I have found that bullets like Sierra Game King(Federal),SST"s and Inter Locks(Hornady and Federal's excellent Fusion work best as they open quickly and are perfect for lung or chest shots...they may run a little but it won't be far..My wife and I crop does for ranchers in Wy. so we get to see a lot of results..The above bullets are usually very accurate.

[tommyd53]

In my humble opinion, there is only 1 ethical shot on deer, behind the shoulder. I've shot a fair amount of deer, and have never seen 2 that reacted the same way after the shot. Some drop instanly and seemingly die before they hit the ground. Others run like their touch hole was swabbed with turpentine. One year, I shot a buck and a doe (I had an antlerless tag) in almost the identical spot. The 9 point buck dropped where he stood and was dead before I reached him from 50 yards. The next week I shot a doe and she took off like I never touched her. Same rifle, a 270 Ruger. Same distance, about 50 yards. When she took off like she did, I thought I had somehow missed. I took up her track in fresh snow. After about 75 yards I found a spot of blood about the size of my thumbnail. I was glad in knowing I had at least hit her and now I had some blood for tracking, still wondering how I could have made a shot that produced so little blood. Another 30 yards and she was piled up against a mature hardwood. She had run head long into it, dead on her feet. When I opened her up, there wasn't a piece of her heart bigger than my thumb. My point in writing all this is to say that there is no text book scenario as to how deer are going to die. And what's wrong with a little tracking job? While we all would love to make instantaneous kills, it doesn't always happen. And following a blood trail over fresh snow or dried fall oak leaves, what's more exciting than that? Just knowing your trophy lies at the end of that trail.

[blkdia]

I have shot a fair amount of deer and the only ones I have lost were with core-loks and Partitions..The core-loks worked great on moose and grizzly(went through both shoulders and out)30/06...Others may have different experiences but these are mine...Whitetails are very high strung...I have found that bullets like Sierra Game King(Federal),SST"s and Inter Locks(Hornady and Federal's excellent Fusion work best as they open quickly and are perfect for lung or chest shots...they may run a little but it won't be far..My wife and I crop does for ranchers in Wy. so we get to see a lot of results..The above bullets are usually very accurate.

It is amazing how people get different results from different bullets. Core-Lokts are the deadliest bullets for deer I've ever used, out of my .350 RM, the worst were 200 gr Hornadys, shot caliber sized holes on both sides, go figure.

Denny

[blkdia]

In my humble opinion, there is only 1 ethical shot on deer, behind the shoulder. I've shot a fair amount of deer, and have never seen 2 that reacted the same way after the shot. Some drop instanly and seemingly die before they hit the ground. Others run like their touch hole was swabbed with turpentine. One year, I shot a buck and a doe (I had an antlerless tag) in almost the identical spot. The 9 point buck dropped where he stood and was dead before I reached him from 50 yards. The next week I shot a doe and she took off like I never touched her. Same rifle, a 270 Ruger. Same distance, about 50 yards. When she took off like she did, I thought I had somehow missed. I took up her track in fresh snow. After about 75 yards I found a spot of blood about the size of my thumbnail. I was glad in knowing I had at least hit her and now I had some blood for tracking, still wondering how I could have made a shot that produced so little blood. Another 30 yards and she was piled up against a mature hardwood. She had run head long into it, dead on her feet. When I opened her up, there wasn't a piece of her heart bigger than my thumb. My point in writing all this is to say that there is no text book scenario as to how deer are going to die. And what's wrong with a little tracking job? While we all would love to make instantaneous kills, it doesn't always happen. And following a blood trail over fresh snow or dried fall oak leaves, what's more exciting than that? Just knowing your trophy lies at the end of that trail.

Hi Tommy
Ethics are a personal thing, I believe you owe it to the game to take it as cleanly as possible. Ones' abilities are also a key to bullet placement. I would never take a head shot if I wasn't always sure it was the right shot at that time. I hunt in a place that sometimes, it is paramount to drop the deer where it stands or lose it to a property that is posted and the owner would rather see an animal rot on the ground than let you retrieve it, it is his call.
If you have a gun that shoots 1" groups at 100 yards, there is no reason other than shooter error, to pass up a head shot, there is nothing unethical about it. I shoot plenty of deer behind the shoulders, it's a grand shot for sure, but I'd much rather gut a head shot deer anytime, 100% unwasted meat. I say take whatever shot you are comfortable taking, just make it a good shot!

Denny

[tommyd53]

Hi Tommy
Ethics are a personal thing, I believe you owe it to the game to take it as cleanly as possible. Ones' abilities are also a key to bullet placement. I would never take a head shot if I wasn't always sure it was the right shot at that time. I hunt in a place that sometimes, it is paramount to drop the deer where it stands or lose it to a property that is posted and the owner would rather see an animal rot on the ground than let you retrieve it, it is his call.
If you have a gun that shoots 1" groups at 100 yards, there is no reason other than shooter error, to pass up a head shot, there is nothing unethical about it. I shoot plenty of deer behind the shoulders, it's a grand shot for sure, but I'd much rather gut a head shot deer anytime, 100% unwasted meat. I say take whatever shot you are comfortable taking, just make it a good shot!

Denny

You're absolutely right, Denny. I guess I get narrow minded at times and relate all situations to my own. I've never had to take a head shot, but that doesn't mean that others, in different situations, need to take that shot. I guess I was looking at it as both shots being available, with no other factors involved, which one was the right shot. I didn't consider being in heavily pressured hunting areas or being close to posted land. That's what I do love about this forum. It does definetly broaden your horizon. Your last statement says it all. Just make it good shot.

[tjen]

It is amazing how people get different results from different bullets. Core-Lokts are the deadliest bullets for deer I've ever used, out of my .350 RM, the worst were 200 gr Hornadys, shot caliber sized holes on both sides, go figure. Denny

CoreLokts are one of the fastest opening bullets ever designed not as fast as a tipped bullet but very fast. Same with partitions from .308 dia and smaller they have very thin jackets at the tip.

I can be about 90% sure its wasn't the bullet type alone. What cartidge was it fired from and what distance? the ony Core lokts I have been unhappy with was the 100gr 243/6mm switched to a 270win 130gr Corelokt and never looked back.

Core lokts, Partitions, and Inter Locks are some of the best performing bullets for deer I know of.

You know from a logical view point saying ethics are a personal thing really means that we have different degrees of ethics. I just perfer to have the highest degree of ethics and hope other will hold that in estream and chose to pattern theirs after them. Its better to be the leader in an Enthics race.